Does it matter....

[Ralph]

that they haven't found any WMD's?

Do you think they will find some WMD's as they explore more of the country and talk to engineers who can now speak freely?

If none are ever found does that mean that Iraq was complying with the UN resolution?

[Nor*Cal]

Scuds are on the list of banned items... He fired several into Kuwait. They really skipped most of the country and just hit some major cities. As time will tell I think they will find some evidence.

[K-dub]

I think that this will be the start of too much world drama, to put it lightly.....

[furitive_revolution]

if not then what happens? then the whole war was pretty much for nothing. cause the states knew they had scuds before did they not? i could be wrong. thats just what i understand. being from canada and in the middle of university finals i don't really know whats goin on totally right now.
peace

[Neognosis]

We will look like colonialists if we don't find any WMDs. Especially now that we don't want the UN to participate in the rebuild. The rest of the world will have an even worse opinion of us than they do now.

It will probably make other middle-east countries much more scared of us, though, because they will believe that we will invade whenever we feel like it without UN approval or a solid reason.

[criminally_minded]

Well you will won't you?

[Leggester]

Yes, we will. Along with our allies.

When will you folks realize the U.N. is a standing joke and has been for fifty years?

CB would have liked to have kept the Iraqi people under Sadam - I think that's very sad. As long as your free, no one else should be? No CB, we will behave and look like the Liberators we are. Don't you remember the statues coming down? Do you think the Iraqi people would have been able to do that if the Coalition left them alone? You definitely have a skewed world view.

Do you really not watch the news and read the papers? Haven't heard of the top Iraqis going to Syria, the trains that have been going there since '99?

Do you not think these countries coperate between themselves?

I still believe we are right. Period.

You want the U.N. to mean something? Yet still have countries like Syria and the old Iraq as members?

Why the hell should the U.N. have ANY say in rebuilding the Iraqi government? Did they do ANYTHING to deserve to? No.

If Syria does not coperate, they'll be put under economic sanctions. Especially if they continue to harbor war criminals and terrorists. If, in another twelve years, those sanctions do not work, well the powers that be will have to do somethnig again.

N. Korea is already asking to come back to the bargaining table.

We ARE making the world a safer place. Someone has to and we have the means to. Yes, we will not be liked by everyone. Too bad. I myself am not liked by everyone I know. Yet, even those that do not like me will tell you I keep my word. That's enough for me and I believe it will be enough for the United States.

[jt09]

Well said Matt! The "Big Stick" approach works VERY well. Syria will get in line...as much as they are willing to...and crawl back under their little rock. You don't have to swing your big stick very often to be effective.

There is something to be said for being the Jules of the World (yes, our wallet says "Bad Mother F*cker" on it). You can call us bullies, and we may step over the political line every now and then, perhaps even for reasons of self interest. In the end, however, we are a righteous nation and we do more good for the world, BY FAR, than any other nation on the planet.

Ralph - I am not sure what the exact definition of WMD is...I guess nuclear is what you mean. I know they have found chemicals, but if they were so bad, it would be all over the news by now. I think that stuff will turn up eventually...both chemical (which they have) and nuclear (which they may not have, but surely have a program and were trying to manufacture or acquire).

[Neognosis]

First off, don't tell me what I would have wanted. NOBODY wanted to keep the Iraqi's under Sadam. It's just a question of whether the US is the worlds police force or not. I think not. There's a distinction. I think everyone should be "free," but I don't believe that the US has the responsibility to make every nation a democratic one. People have to do that for themselves, maybe with a little help. We shouldn't have to do it FOR other nations.

We have yet to see what happens in Iraq after we pull out. Can democracy work there? Will it? Will our meddling bring just more resentment and terrorism? Americans on Middle Eastern soil has historically not yielded the peace we think it will.

So Iraq, having no proven links to the 9/11 bombing, gets invaded under the pretext that they have WMDs. If we dont' find any, that means that we invaded a soverign nation (regardless of whether you like or dislike their leader) and deposed their government. Though this *may* ACTUALLY be a positive thing, it is a theoretical violation of international law, and that is very bad.

What the US will have said, is that any nation may invade another nation without approval from the UN, as long as it believes that the nation to be invaded may pose a threat, proven or unproven.

Was Saddam a terrible dictator? YES. Did he deserve to be overthrown? YES. Does the US have the responsibility to go into every nation that has a terrible dictator and depose them? That's what the question will be if we don't find any WMDs.

[Grouch]

If the coalition forces dont find any WMD's they will probably plant them in my opinion to save face.

[Leggester]

You guys have to quit watching CNN.

[Neognosis]

I don't think we will have to plant any WMDs. If we just wait awhile, things will kind of blow over, and if we can get Iraqi oil production up and maybe sell some to a couple of other nations cheap, nobody will really care much longer.

[Leggester]

You're talking like we own them CB. We don't. Whatever Iraqi government comes up will. That's why I'm happy the U.S. did something about this rather than another country.

I believe we'll honor our statements.

WMD was not the biggest issue for the war. Terrorism and failure to honor UN agreements was. They have used weapons they 'did not have'.

Remember the missiles that were being destroyed? That weren't supposed to go that far?

How quickly we forget. I guess this is truly the age of instant gratification and all of the yesterdays are forgotten.

[jason_ssr]

geez, some of you act like youve never met someone who just needed an ass whoopin'. Youve never walked into the bar and seen the loud guy talking a bunch of crap. You ignore him and he gets loud at your friends and you just move away. Then he starts hitting on your lady. You move again and he walks over and grabs her inappropriately. At what point do you kick is ass?

Saddam has done the same thing. He talks, and lies and keeps doing things that will get his ass kicked. Someone finally stood up and did it. I wish we would have done it sooner....

The Iraqi people are glad to be rid of him, just like the rest of the patrons at the bar.

[Leggester]

Here's a "joke" letter that might pertain to this subject:

What follows is the text of a presidential address to be given by President
Bush on July 4, 2003. The source of this material remains unidentified.

My fellow Americans:

As you all know, the defeat of Iraq¹s regime has been completed. The
discovery and destruction of all weapons of mass destruction have been
covered thoroughly in the press. An new Iraqi government has been
established and appears to be stable.

Our mission in Iraq is complete.

This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all American forces
from Iraq. This action will be complete within 30 days.

It is now time to begin the reckoning.

Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the names of countries
which have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short.
The United Kingdom, Spain, Bulgaria, and Poland are some of the countries
listed there.

The other list contains everyone not on the first list. Most of the
world¹s nations are on that list. My press secretary will be distributing
copies of both lists later this evening.

Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those
nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved
during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi
war.

The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world
hell-holes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption.

Need help with a famine? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France.

In the out years, together with Congress, I will work to re-direct this
money toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home.

I am ordering the immediate withdrawal of all US forces from Kuwait, Saudi
Arabia, and all other Middle Eastern nations. Leave us alone. Solve your
own damn problems. Need help? Call Germany.

On that note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will
hunt you down and eliminate you and all your relatives from the face of the
earth. Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France, or maybe
China.

Regarding the nation of Israel, I have this to say. It seems like
everybody has forgotten what happened to European Jewry during the 1930s
and World War II. Our nation will never permit the destruction of Israel.
No way, Jose. Nevertheless, to Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Yo,
boys. Yank yer heads outta rectal defilade and work out a peace deal.
Just note that Camp David is closed. Maybe all of you can go to Russia for
negotiations. They have some great palaces there. Big tables, too.

I¹m ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France,
Germany, and Russia. Thanks for all your help, comrades. We are retiring
from NATO as well. Bon chance, mes amis.

I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to begin towing the many UN
diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more than two unpaid tickets
to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and crushed. I
don¹t give a damn about whatever treaty pertains to this. Pay your tickets
tomorrow or watch your precious Benzes, Beamers, and limos be turned over
to some of the finest chop shops in the world. I love New York.

A special note to our neighbors. Canada is on List 2. Since we are going
to be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not
pissing us off for a change. Mexico is also on List 2. President Fox and
his entire corrupt government really need an attitude adjustment. I have a
couple extra tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I¹m
gonna put Œem? Yep, border security. So start doing something with your
oil. Oh, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty---starting now.

It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own citizens.
Some will accuse us of xenophobia. My response is simple and direct: if
you can play that word in Scrabble, do it as soon as your turn comes round.
Some will accuse us of isolationism.

I answer them by saying darn tootin¹. Nearly a century of trying to help
folks live a decent life around the world has only earned us the undying
enmity of just about everyone on the planet.

It is time to eliminate hunger in America. It is time to eliminate
homelessness in America. It is time to eliminate World Cup soccer from
America.

We will develop energy independence. We will restructure our nation for
its isolationist destiny.

I will be sending legislation to Congress tomorrow proposing the first
actions that that august body should take as we move in a new direction.

Finally, I have decided not to run for a second term of office. The First
Lady and I will retire to our Texas ranch and have some fun. Laura and I
have been talking about takin¹ one of those cruises up to Alaska.
Personally, I couldn't care less who gets elected in 2004. Throw a little
fascism into the mix and elect Senator Clinton. She can appoint the
editorial board of the New York Times to her Cabinet.

To the nations on List 2, a final thought. Drop dead.

To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thanks guys. We owe you.

God bless America.

Thank you and good night.
Phil Yoder
ICOM Multimedia
office 614-224-4400
fax 614-224-4445
cell 614-207-4400

.

[Neognosis]

Leg: we don't own them, but we are deciding which companies will get contracts to rebuild and further repair and develop the oil production and infrastructure. I'd say that gives us a fair amount of influence over who gets what.

"whatever Iraqi government that comes up, will"

Deep down you CAN'T really believe this. You really think we are going to leave and have no further influence there? We aren't letting go of Iraq until we are dead sure that it is in the hands of someone who doesn't want to kill us.

As far as your presidential address goes, a lot of the stuff in there is along the lines of what I believe our policies should be. I don't think we should be messing around with other governments. The cold war is over. Communism is not (maybe never was) a real threat to us. Aside from our energy concerns, there is no reason we need to be messing around with outher people's business. It just causes so much resentment. Let everyone else screw themselves. If they want to trade, we trade. But otherwise, everyone has to earn their own independance (or ask us for help, at least) and everyone has to clean up their own messes, barring humanitarian aid.

[B-rad]

That's good, I like it. Funny enough and serious enough to make some valid points. Good call leggester, I'll be sending this out to all my fellow republican friends ASAP.

[jt09]

Nice Matt!

If we are going to be the Jules (you know, the wallet that says BAD MOTHER F*CKER on it?) of the world, we need to step in and smack some clowns around every now and then. Personally, I think we are pretty damn nice considering what we could do.

No country does as much for the rest of the world as the United States does. Not even close.

[Neognosis]

Is that fake speach in line with Republican ideas? I'm not sure it is. Is it? Aren't Republicans against spending money to develop alternative energy sources and for the NAFTA treaty? Am I wrong? I don't know my politics that well.

[B-rad]

Not all of it is directly in line with what the GOP belives, but there are a few strong points that are straight republican in nature.

[jt09]

[Neognosis]

Ok, the kid gloves are off. From this point on, I'm hounding all the BS I let slide from you, jt09. I'm going to search these boards and point out every emotional, irrational argument you make. I have the sand to admit when I don't know something, not hide behind the curtain of patriotism which you think allows you to say base-less, illogical crap and get away with it.

By the way, "jules," do you think that having a US occupational force in Iraq is going to scare the nut cases who are willing to turn themselves into bombs, or do you think it is going to piss them off more? I'm sure that all the little Osamas out there are quaking in their boots, and changing their terrorist plans as we speak.

[B-rad]

Actaully I think it is making them re-evaluate what is going on and what the next course of action is. It's hard to blow others away when your running, hidding, having your $$$ taken ro frozen and having your wepons cache raided.

[jt09]

Relax CB....you can search all you want, but when I post about political/war issues, it takes me forever because I think out my statements, type them in, preview them, make sure everything makes sense, is spelled right, edit, preview again, etc.

Funny how your personal views on aggression differ so much from those you want the country to take.

By the way, you had your politics correct on the alternative energy/NAFTA deal.

[Leggester]

CB, yes you're wrong about spending money for alternative energy and Nafta.

Basically a quick break down of Dem vs. Rep:

Dems are for a more socialized system where the few take care of the many. Lot's of corruption, unfortunately, in the upper layers though. Look at the Kennedys. All for more taxes and putting more and more people on the dole ( socialization ) as long as they get to stay on top. The Gov'm't should develop the source. I do not like this because the Govmnt is already about 5 times larger than needed. This allows MORE beaurocracy and more money NOT spent on research but on the Govmt employees.

Reps are more for people doing for themselves. Again, much corruption as seen by Carnegie. As a company comes up with a monetarily feasable energy source, it will be spoken for by the public in sales. Production and development of Cold Fusion was nixed by uninformed people.

These are broad generalizations, of coures, and do not apply to everyone.

And no. We are trying to get some companies in for damage control and assessment. This damage was caused by the past regime. Again, Iraq will do what they want with their oil. For example, what US companies are controlling the Saudi Emirates oil? None, even though we developed all of them in the seventies and early eighties. I'm not worried on that point. History has shown what happens there.

That 'fake' speach is more along the lines of folks like myself, a confirmed Libertine, and many folks who've worked hard for their money. You help us, we help you. Simple as that.

I don't want to get in a pissing match with you. You're phrasing of questions does get under my skin at times and I react. I am a proud citizen of the United States and I will NOT feel guilty because we're the strongest and richest country ni the world. I am definitely FOR helping other countries out. It was enough for me to get rid of Iraq's regime. I did not need any other reasons for us to be there. We've tried, unsuccessfully, for fourteen years to change this. It was time to enforce what we said. In fact, it was past time.

You obviously do think about this, which many don't. Please, don't think the whole US is money grubbing. We're are a caring, giving people. We've proven that time and again. Also, we're a just people, which we also have proven time and again.

Here's something for you. Look into why we got into Viet Nam. In a nutshell, it was to appease ( get France a vote ) France in Nato. Period. Did us a whole hell of a lot of good eh?

[loongoon]

one thing, i dont know why, it DOESNT EVEN MATTER how hard i try, keep that in mind that when the.............

[DaveBrowning]

ok... goon... NO! this is a serious post... not something to come in and jack around posting stupid stuff that's off topic. you want to post useless stuff... go to the creamy or crunchy thread.

[loongoon]

thanks for notifying me, i will from now on never post useless information in this SERIOUS post, why, i never meant to harm u Dave, i am only stating a fact of nature that most people would take serious and i had no idea that u thought i was a joker, i honestly did not think of this as a serious post, how foolish of me to even think of joking around in this post, i will never ever take up space in this serious post ever again mainly because i think i already have with that supposedly joke i made that was unintentional and not made to make fun of u i will always remember this post as the one post where i had made a joke that hurt ur feelings, and truly i am sorry for such a wrongdoing i have embarked upon, maybe one day, i too can have a serious post like urs and make sure that no goons will ever post a joke that they did not think was a joke onto the post and be a gaurdian of this post, as a super hero i will forever take this vow seriously and i will never joke on this post ever again, urs truly and really,
loongoon

[DaveBrowning]

STFU newbie... seriously. Don't EVEN try and come on here talking $h!t like you halfway know what's going on. You're posting useless stuff in almost EVERY thread. For example: HAPPY BIRTHDAY times about 30 in the Happy Birthday Kyle thread. Another one: all the "KEEP THE POST, KEEP THE POST" that you typed about a hundred times in the thread that says to not look at it. I mean... you act like you're about 12...

[Nor*Cal]

THE USA WILL NEVER CONTROL OR DICTATE IRAQI OIL DUE TO THIS MAJOR ORGANIZATION CALLED OPEC. IF YOU HAVE EVER HEARD OF OPEC YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THEY DICTATE THE WORLDS SUPPLY OF OIL.

[Nor*Cal]

BTW- The treaties included more than WMD. They included certain other military equipment which we have found. Also Scuds are part of that. The several war crimes and violations of the Geneva Convention also justify our actions.

And yes we are the worlds police. No one else is willing to take measures in order to maintain regional stability. Trust me the world is better off with America's hands on approach. The UN is weak and has proven ineffective. Every major issue is stuck in commitees where a course of action is debated and often not decided on.

[Nathan Newman]

ok, to clarify a few things:
we get 8% of our oil from the middle east, this oil comes from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates.
We have tried peaceful solutions for the past 12 years in Iraq. They have failed. It would be a mockery of justice not to take out Saddam Hussein and his regime.
I have said it before, and I say it again, as the sovereign nation of the world, it is our duty to uphold liberty and justice to all people. Not just Americans, but oppressed Iraqi citizens as well. Iraq must be liberated from the tyranny of Saddam's regime.
The Declaration of Independence states: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their creator with certain unaleinable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..."
Everyone has basic human rights, and no one's unalienable rights should be trampled by a corrupt, evil regime like Saddam's. I don't think it's necessary to cite all of the things that Saddam has done to his people, (gassing them, making them "vote" for him at gun point, etc). For the sake of the well being of the Iraqi people, Saddam had to go. By this point I am adament. I stand by President Bush, and I stand by what is right.
God bless America!

[Neognosis]

I agree with what you think, Nathan, about all people deservingt liberty and human rights and all. I get concerned, however, about the part of it being the USA's responsibility. I'm not saying that is is wrong for us to get involved, I'm just not sure that it's always right. Sometimes it creates a bit of a mess.

[Neognosis]

This is from CNN on March 20:

"Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham said Thursday he's confident there are adequate oil supplies available to the United States to compensate for any losses of crude oil as a result of the war in Iraq."

Apparently, 8% is enough to cause a concern big enough to cause the the Energy Secretary to release a statement like the above.

[Neognosis]

So what is the deal? This is from the American Petroleum Institute:

The United States imports 9.9 percent of all the oil it consumes from Canada, more than from any other nation. It imports 7.9 percent from Saudi Arabia and 7.8 percent from Mexico. It imports 2.2 percent from Iraq. All Persian Gulf nations together supply only 11.5 percent of the oil the United States consumes.

These figures are from 2002.

So why are we even involved there at all? Why are we always meddling in the Middle East? Can somebody tell me what piece of the puzzle I'm missing here?

It's our involvement there, seemingly, that has caused such hate and resentment among the militant Islamic terrorists. Right? But why are we there in the first place?

According to the above resources, Japan and some European nations rely almost completely on Middle-East oil. Does this have something to do with our involvement? Why don't they protect their own interests? What am I missing here? And don't tell me that we are there for humanitarian purposes, 'cause I'm not going to buy that one.