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You be the judge

 
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OttoNP
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 7:45 am    Post subject: You be the judge Reply with quote

Slow day, so here's a dilemma we talk about sometimes...

So there are two teenage kids, joe and dan. They both steal a stop sign from comparable roads. In joe's case, the sign is replaced and he is caught. In dan's case, before the sign is replaced, a terrible accident occurs and someone dies, then he is caught. What should happen to them?

Main point is that they both committed the same crime, stealing a stopsign; however, should their charges/punishment depend on their actual crime, the consequences of their crime, or the possible consequences of their crime?

The actual crime is just stealing a stopsign, just vandalism, not a big deal, maybe probation or something.

The consequence of dan's actions is someone's death, so he could be charged with manslaughter or worse, big deal

while nothing happend with joe's crime, the possibility exists, so maybe he should be in more trouble?

Nick
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Last edited by OttoNP on Feb 25, 2011 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Romi
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since many laws are based on interpretation, this is tough to call. But my feeling is that there should be more of a punishment, but not manslaughter.
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dan
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely manslaughter. His actions led directly to someone's death.

Manslaughter
Accidental homicide or homicide which occurs without an intent to kill, and which does not occur during the commission of another crime or under extreme provocation.

That definition is from http://www.duhaime.org/dictionary/.

In this case, the kid who stole the sign and had it replaced before anything could happen got lucky. The kid who stole the sign and then the accident happened, well, he's just S.O.L. It was an accidental homicide that occured without an intent to kill.

In all likelyhood though, if he didn't have any priors, he'd probably be sent to Juv'y until he was 18 and then have his records sealed upon release so that he didn't have to have a "dirty" record for the rest of his life.

Wow, that was a lot of thinking for a Friday.

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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn good question. I think techniclly They should both get the same sentance. But in this day and age Dan would get the book thrown at him by the DA. I also think that would be a tough one for the jury to decide. I would think a hung jury or conviction of a lesser crime would be the out come. That is tough when you think about if it was you, your loved ones, etc.
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OttoNP
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A part of this is not to try to figure out what would happen, but what you think should happen. I think they should face the same charges/punishment, stealing a stop sign, the accident was unfortunite, but the crime was the same. Neither was trying to kill someone, they were trying to steal a stop sign. Additionally, when I think of the fact that attempted murder is a much less serious offense than murder, that seems wrong. Just because you failed to kill doesn't make you less dangerous or bad. I tend to think that the consequenses of your crime shouldn't matter, just the crime itself. The above example is easy to see how maybe the consequences should effect the charge, but what if someone steals someone's car, forcing them to walk, then while walking something happens, etc...

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Last edited by OttoNP on Feb 25, 2011 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Partyb
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This argument could go on forever there is no "right" answer. The fact remains that in our justice system the results of crime count. Either for revenge or victim's rights. The same argument can be made about a guy who shoots at someone and misses, only attempted murder, if he is a good shot he goes to the electric chair.
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Neognosis
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds like a parrallel to the drunk driving issue. Is the crime the same, even though you got home safe, and your friend killed a car full of a family?
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dan
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, really, people need to be accountable for their actions. The kid stole a sign and someone is dead because of it. He should be charged with murder.

His buddy is lucky that nothing happened with the sign he stole.

This very much parallels the DUI instance. The guy who gets home safe is lucky, the guy who hits and kills somone isn't.

The outcome of the crime should dictate the punishment. My dad always told me "Think about the worst thing that can happen when you do something, and it probably will. Do you want that to happen?"

People's actions have consequences and they should be held responsible for those consequences.

Whew, I guess I feel pretty strongly about this.....

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NOS
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FIRST WE SHOULD CUT OFF THERE FINGERS AND IF THEY CAUGHT STEALING AGAIN... WE SHOULD CUT OFF THIER HAND
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ohsix
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

....

Last edited by ohsix on Jul 18, 2012 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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taylor z
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree w/ wess....dumba$$es!
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Aubs
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

im with wes...
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christy
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The law: Don't steal stop signs, someone could be killed.

The Charge: Manslaughter b/c the law was broken or b/c someone died?

Although they broke the same law, the definition of manslaughter wouldn't apply to the kid who replaced the sign b/c his crime did not result in the death of anyone. Had they both been caught before an accident ever occured, the charge wouldn't have been manslaughter. Partyb is right, IMO, b/c charge and punishment of a crime are directly influenced by the ending result of the crime.
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Partyb
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sure glad all those years of law school came in handy, I can now debate on wb.com, and people agree! Thanks Christy.
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OttoNP
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said before, the idea isn't to apply the law, it is to see if what you think, as in is the law morally right. Obviously you can't charge someone with manslaughter when no one dies. In today's society the consequences play a large role in the charges/punishment, is that how it should be?

I think that ideally the charges and punishments that people face shouldn't be related to the consequences, but just to the act.

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Last edited by OttoNP on Feb 25, 2011 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ohsix
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

....

Last edited by ohsix on Jul 18, 2012 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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King of the Tigers
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya, it's definitely the results of the crime that will lead to the punishment. I'm glad I got to do all the dumb destructive stuff I did as a kid. (we once made an El Camino chasing us get in a wreck.) Here's a slightly related story. I had a jerkweed English teacher in 10th grade who delighted in showing her superior brain power over 10th graders (wow) and in showing her nasty body in revealing outfits. We had an assignment to write a limerick and I wrote mine about how stupid she was and in the last line put "it's time for a national lynch." She took it as me threatening her life and pressed charges and I had to go to Juvi court and do community service. A few years laters Columbine happened and I thought about how different the outcome of my limerick would have been after Columbine.
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King of the Tigers
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya, it's definitely the results of the crime that will lead to the punishment. I'm glad I got to do all the dumb destructive stuff I did as a kid. (we once made an El Camino chasing us get in a wreck.) Here's a slightly related story. I had a jerkweed English teacher in 10th grade who delighted in showing her superior brain power over 10th graders (wow) and in showing her nasty body in revealing outfits. We had an assignment to write a limerick and I wrote mine about how stupid she was and in the last line put "it's time for a national lynch." She took it as me threatening her life and pressed charges and I had to go to Juvi court and do community service. A few years laters Columbine happened and I thought about how different the outcome of my limerick would have been after Columbine.
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Sean_Brinston
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow that is gonna be a hard decision , like some one said there is no right answer, and wes is right why a stop sign?
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RichD
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PostPosted: Jan 17, 2003 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan should be charged with murder/homicide since a death did occur. You cannot use the comparison above in which the person stole a car.
It should be obvious that Dan understood the purpose of the stop sign and that removing could lead to a fatality. He most likely would be charged for the death of the victim.

I practice medicine and can give a simplistic analogy. When someone sues a physician there must be some type of malpractice and damage/bad outcome for the patient. If a patient has asthma and phsician inadvertantly prescibes a medicine that causes an excacerbation of the patients asthma: #1) the patient is treated and completely recovers then there has not been a bad outcome #2) the patient dies as a result of the asthma excacerbation due to the prescribed medicine. In both cases an inappropriate medicine was prescribed but, it is obvious who will be paying for the patiens kids college tuition.
Cool

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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2003 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

give em both the chair. just kiddin. thats a tough call. I've done some dumb stuff in my day that would've been so much different if the outcome was different. we had a road that ran right next to a major highway and we used to throw waterballoons from our car, over the cement barrier onto the highway... nothing real bad ever came of it, but wow it could've been a lot worse
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Jess
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2003 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can you say wat Dan did directly resulted in the terrible accident?Totally unrelated but when my friend was doing his driving test he didn't stop at a stop sign as it had been stolen, yet the assessor new, there should have / was, a sign there so my mate failed his test.
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impulse
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2003 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

why was the stop sign there? When the kids both stole the stop sign then they were commiting a crime. You cannot punish just solely based on the crime. (use your best OJ Simpson joke here). Because in our system who you are determines how much time you do.

Have you guys seen were Goodrich from the cowboys was driving his car over 100mph and hit two guys helping some people on the side of the road. He killed both of them and they think he is not going to do any jail time. if you or i did the same thing we would be in prison for a while.

I know a guy who threw his son a graduation party. ONe of the rules is that the kids could drink if they all stayed at his place on the lake. Well one of the girls goes home after the party. Her mom found out they were drinking and they were good friends with the district judge. No one was hurt, but because of who they knew, the man got 5 years in prison.

i know all this is kinda random and long. You would want the kid that stole the sign and the reck happened to do more time if it was your family that died.
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