Wakeboarder Forum Index

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   StatisticsStats   FavoritesFavorites   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages  Log inLog in 
BlogsBlogs   

Mounting amp to sub box

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Wakeboarder Forum Index -> Accessories
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
lumpy19
Criminal
Criminal


Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 97
City: Rochester

PostPosted: Apr 29, 2005 5:53 am    Post subject: Mounting amp to sub box Reply with quote

is this a bad idea? I've got a 12" polk sub in a Q-logic box and the kenwood amp i have fits perfectly on the back of the sub box.

thanks
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
chavez
Ladies Man
Ladies Man


Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville

PostPosted: Apr 29, 2005 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lumpy19, it will be fine, but it will take some vibration abuse. I have done this many times in the past and have not had problems.
_________________
Quote:
That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole.


RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog Visit poster's website
lumpy19
Criminal
Criminal


Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 97
City: Rochester

PostPosted: Apr 29, 2005 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chavez wrote:
lumpy19, it will be fine, but it will take some vibration abuse. I have done this many times in the past and have not had problems.


thanks man, it just makes things really easy, neat, and clean.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PortlandBrder
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 352
City: Portland

PostPosted: Apr 29, 2005 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't do it, ask any expert, vibration is not good for the amp, thats why they make amp racks. Do it right so it will last.
_________________
Im sick of seeing these posers with 50k boats who can't even wakeboard.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
soundsetter
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 06 Mar 2004
Posts: 23
City: newark

PostPosted: Apr 29, 2005 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree with portlandbrder. not the best ideal. last thing i would do...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
AndyDeeJay
Outlaw
Outlaw


Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Posts: 239
City: Belfast

PostPosted: May 02, 2005 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any amp worth two fiddles will be ok with some vibration. If your bass enclosure is vibrating then throw it away and get a good one or open it up and brace it more thoroughly. A properly designed cabinet should be rock solid and all of its energy should be going out the port (if fitted) and the drive unit only.
_________________
Wakeboarding is so Kool in Ireland!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
chavez
Ladies Man
Ladies Man


Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville

PostPosted: May 02, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, and lets all keep in mind that this is going to be in a boat where vibration and bouncing around are constant.



PS: I don't know about 'expert' but I did this stuff for a living for quite a long time. Neutral

_________________
Quote:
That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole.


RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog Visit poster's website
PortlandBrder
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 352
City: Portland

PostPosted: May 03, 2005 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats funny chavez because I've never heard of a reputeable installer putting a amp on a sub box. I've seen it done and I don't agree with it. I have a custom amp rack built for my powor series amp, my shop just does boats and custom enclosers, they laughed when I mentioned doing this. Do it right and build a rack. Don't drill into your enclosure!
_________________
Im sick of seeing these posers with 50k boats who can't even wakeboard.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chavez
Ladies Man
Ladies Man


Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville

PostPosted: May 03, 2005 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PortlandBrder, no offense, but you are working with monkeys. Where do you think most amps are mounted in many of these high-end customs?

That's right, on the box or on something that is screwed in to the box.

Tell me where the amps are mounted here:


I did this stuff for many years. While an amp rack is nice, it is not always feasible.

PS: bass is omnidirectional. It WILL shake anything that is around it.

_________________
Quote:
That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole.


RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog Visit poster's website
PortlandBrder
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 352
City: Portland

PostPosted: May 03, 2005 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats not the point. Don't drill into a enclosure, amp racks don't even take up much more space when installed correctly. And as for your picture, well thats a custom enclosure that they built custom for those amps. I don't think homeboy is going to spend a G on a custom box. And if you want to talk comp then go to sounddomain.com and talk to the comp guys, c what they say about a drilling into a cheap box.
_________________
Im sick of seeing these posers with 50k boats who can't even wakeboard.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chavez
Ladies Man
Ladies Man


Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville

PostPosted: May 03, 2005 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Don't drill into a enclosure, amp racks don't even take up much more space when installed correctly. And as for your picture, well thats a custom enclosure that they built custom for those amps.


You miss the point. Vibration is vibration. You cannot shield the amps from such in a small space, period. Besides, boats are constantly vibrating, going over rollers/d-ups/etc. No amp rack is gonna fix that.

Quote:

c what they say about a drilling into a cheap box.


As long as the screws are coated in silicone he will be fine. A cheap box has inherent problems anyways.

Quote:

And if you want to talk comp then go to sounddomain.com and talk to the comp guys


I don't really care what the hell they say at sounddomain.com - I did this for a living for almost a decade. I've seen and heard it all.



Bottom line is, if he ain't got any room to mount the amp, the sub box will work. Either that, or he should get a basslink. Believe it or not, those things work great and hey look, the amp is built in! Laughing



My advice to you PB, is don't be an eliteist and don't believe everything your local shop tells you. They do make more money by billing people for seperate amp boards and such. Idea

_________________
Quote:
That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole.


RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog Visit poster's website
lumpy19
Criminal
Criminal


Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 97
City: Rochester

PostPosted: May 03, 2005 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'm mounting it to the box and seeing how it works out.

Thanks for all the opinions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PortlandBrder
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 352
City: Portland

PostPosted: May 03, 2005 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lumpy19,

Go to a reputable stereo shop that deals with a lot of boats. Unless your going to have a custom box fabricated to hold your amp. Honestly I very surprised to hear a installer as he states he saying that its ok to mount a amp to a box that is not fabricated to hold it. Yes it will work, Vibration is not the concern, your boat does a good job of that. I did a hell of a lot of research on installers, there is a lot of guys out in this business who shouldnt be. You can go to a shop and have 2 guys install your system and one sounds great and the other sounds like ish.

I can give you the guys at Boat Toys, they deal with boat systems only. They will steer you in the right direction. Research, don't just listen to me, do what I did and ask a lot of pros.

_________________
Im sick of seeing these posers with 50k boats who can't even wakeboard.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chavez
Ladies Man
Ladies Man


Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville

PostPosted: May 04, 2005 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Vibration is not the concern


Then please enlighten us as to what is the concern. Neutral



PS: MDF is MDF is MDF - it's only when you are talking particle board that there may be problems.

Fabricated to hold it? HAHAHAHA Who blew that smoke up your a$$? Just because you use a seperate board does not mean it is any different structurally than the box. It's all just MDF and it's all just screwed/nailed(stapled) and glued.

Quote:

there is a lot of guys out in this business who shouldnt be


No joke. I was the 'service call' guy for a good portion of my install career. I got to fix their mistakes. What a PITA!

_________________
Quote:
That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole.


RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog Visit poster's website
PortlandBrder
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 352
City: Portland

PostPosted: May 04, 2005 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My amp board is mounted upside down with it bolted down through the board with nuts and washers. My amps T15004 25lbs and my T20001bd approx the same wieght there is no way I would trust screwing with the vibration that occurs in a boat. 3/4 mdf, if u screw all the way through your a moron, if you don't your in about a half an inch, do the math. Silicone. come on. Just to make my point I started a forum On souddomain.com about this topic. So far not one person has agreed with you chaves. And most of these guys are Professional installers or compete in comps. So either everyone is just plain dumb or your have a stick up your ass.
_________________
Im sick of seeing these posers with 50k boats who can't even wakeboard.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chavez
Ladies Man
Ladies Man


Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville

PostPosted: May 04, 2005 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PortlandBrder,

1. obviously with an amp of your size it would need to be thru bolted. I would only screw in an smaller, lighter amp.

2. there is nothing wrong with screwing all the way through so long as you are not trying to 'present' the sub box via plexi. If there is another reason, please explain.

3. the nailed/screwed statement was directed towards fabricating a box, not amp mounting.

4. this guy has a Kenwood amp that I would surmise is about 12x12 in size and weighs 7 or so pounds. He WILL NOT have any problems mounting such to the box.

5. I repeat: I do not need to listen to the guys at SoundDomain.com. As previously stated, this was my career for many years. They may have OPINIONS on the subject, but so far, I have not heard you regurgitate one solid reason why this particular guy shouldn't mount his little Kenwood amp to his box.

6. Finally: the folks at SoundDomain are probably focused on competition/presentation, whereas this guy just wants an easy way to get his bass on. Their solutions are wonderful, but they do not help this guy out.

_________________
Quote:
That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole.


RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog Visit poster's website
chavez
Ladies Man
Ladies Man


Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville

PostPosted: May 04, 2005 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Ok, for all u stereo pros, Im having a debate with this guy, I always heard not to mount your amps to your sub enclosures. I know a lot of comp systems do but there enclosures are custom built to the specs of the amps. But for a cheap enclosure you wouldnt want to drill into it would you? seems like a amp rack would be much better. So let me hear your feedback. thanks guys

--------------------
Mastercraft X star
Kenwood KDC-X889
Rockford Fosgate T10001bd
Rockford Fosgate T15004
8 Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.1's
3 10" JL W6 Subs
300 amp Marine Altenator
XM Radio

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 58 | From: Portland Oregon | Registered: Feb 2005 | IP: Logged |

kklagge

SD Regular
Member # 53203

posted 05-04-2005 04:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the box is well constructed and has adequate internal bracing I'd say mounting the amp to the box isn't that big of a deal (sometimes it's unavoidable because of space limitations)...if the box is cheaply constructed then you'll get some flexing when the subs hit and it more than likely will affect the amp to some extent....I personally prefer to never mount on the box...but that's just me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 69 | From: So Cal. | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |

grandam95

SD Diehard
Member # 59713

posted 05-04-2005 08:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, some say that you shouldn't because the box will vibrate and cause the amps internals to vibrate loose. Also, if the box should happen to slide around it could damage the amp if it smashes it.

--------------------
Alpine 7995
Alpine SPX-177a
Monster Wiring/RCA's
MA Audio HardKore amps(yet to come)
12" RE SE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 528 | From: cleveland | Registered: Sep 2004 | IP: Logged |

Murph.

SD Superstar
Member # 21112

posted 05-04-2005 09:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not only a bad idea for vibration but it's eaiser to steal. Build an amp rack or mount it to the seat.

--------------------
You're only as good as your worst installation.

Do it right the first time and only do it once.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 8856 | From: Rowlett,TX,USA | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged |

DigitalBoomer

SD Superstar
Member # 52129

posted 05-04-2005 09:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by grandam95:
Also, some say that you shouldn't because the box will vibrate and cause the amps internals to vibrate loose. Also, if the box should happen to slide around it could damage the amp if it smashes it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The vibration issue is the main one. Not only can it vibrate the internal components of the amplifier, it could actually vibrate enough for the wire connections to work loose and eventually fall out. The last thing you need is a loose power wire touching the ground on the amplifier (goodby amp!) or RCA wires touching each other and damaging the HU. Do not mount the amplifier to the subwoofer box!

--------------------
http://members.sounddomain.com/52129
Member- TEAM GATES
Budweiser, helping white people dance since 1876!
Big Boys, Loud Toys, Turn that damn thing down!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 4958 | From: Cartersville, GA | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged |

Dirty Sanchez

SD Superstar
Member # 46641

posted 05-04-2005 12:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DigitalBoomer:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by grandam95:
Also, some say that you shouldn't because the box will vibrate and cause the amps internals to vibrate loose. Also, if the box should happen to slide around it could damage the amp if it smashes it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The vibration issue is the main one. Not only can it vibrate the internal components of the amplifier, it could actually vibrate enough for the wire connections to work loose and eventually fall out. The last thing you need is a loose power wire touching the ground on the amplifier (goodby amp!) or RCA wires touching each other and damaging the HU. Do not mount the amplifier to the subwoofer box!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

x2.

*all together now*
Subwoofer enclosures are for subwoofers,
Amp racks are for amplifiers.



--------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by kisswahili:
my gas is like 19 a month...i dont even know what i use gas for..probably heat



Seems like your conversation has brought up my 1 and only concern with this - vibration.

We have pretty much covered the vibration topic, and it seems to be mutually agreeable that vibration is going to happen no matter what as this is a boat install, and connections must be secure. Other than that, nobody there has given solid reasons as to why not.

Also, I think we can both agree that box mounting is not the preferred method. My argument is that it will work and is not that big of a deal (given no gargantuan amps like yours), and that vibration is going to happen anywhere near the sub enclosure - even on an amp board mounted near to the sub.

_________________
Quote:
That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole.


RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog Visit poster's website
tonality
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 435
City: DFW

PostPosted: May 04, 2005 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my research on the subject, I was under the impression that the issue with mounting to a poorly-braced sub box was not so much vibration as it was the amount of flex that the box will be subject to. Continuously warping the mount points of an amp can't be good in any situation. Mounting to the box is possible if you HAVE to do it, and if you brace the box sufficiently to handle the warping. The amp can handle the vibration; anyone that would design an amp that couldn't take vibrations would have to be a fool.
_________________
<insert witty banter here>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
lumpy19
Criminal
Criminal


Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 97
City: Rochester

PostPosted: May 04, 2005 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PortlandBrder,

I'm really not doubting you dude. I know it's not the preferred method, I know mounting it on a separate board would be better but for right now I'm going to try it on the box. I'm heading out to my boat to install it right now, I'll report back in and see how it goes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
chavez
Ladies Man
Ladies Man


Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville

PostPosted: May 04, 2005 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tonality, word.

In a small box/moderate power application, that uses 3/4 mdf, warping/flex is less of a factor.

Also, this goes back to what I said earlier:
Quote:

A cheap box has inherent problems anyways.


People began using 3/4" MDF back in the mid 90's or so because its thickness allowed for less flex, thus creating a tighter bass response.

Before the mid-90's, pretty much all boxes were 1/2 or 5/8 and almost if not all of the prefabs were particle board not MDF.

_________________
Quote:
That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole.


RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog Visit poster's website
Ledmech
Criminal
Criminal


Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 69
City: Gainesville

PostPosted: May 05, 2005 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would just put it somewhere it'll be dry. A boat is the worst place in the world for electronics. No matter where you put it it will have the sh1t beat outta it. Just keep it dry
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dees
Wakeboarder.com Freak
Wakeboarder.com Freak


Joined: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 3548
City: Nampa

PostPosted: May 06, 2005 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got my amps mounted directly to my box and have had no problems with them. going on almost three years that way.

I've always mounted them to the box in a closed space like a car or open space (which is actually closed being it is electronics and electronics and water dont mix) like a boat, vibrations is going to happen.

So lets all agrue over the internet some more. Oh and PortlandBrder, my dad can beat up your dad. And get off sounddomain.com guys cok

_________________
haugy wrote:
Your 14, you masturbate. There's your answer.


jt09 wrote:
ont - like your money, your opinion loses value as it crosses the border.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Blog Visit poster's website AIM Address
chavez
Ladies Man
Ladies Man


Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville

PostPosted: May 06, 2005 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dees,

Quote:
imtfox

Moderator
Member # 935

posted 05-04-2005 05:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feh... I have amps that are older than some people on this site that have always been mounted to boxes and they have no problems.

If your box is constructed correctly, your amps won't vibrate any more than if they were mounted to the seats. The car body vibrates whenever the car is moving; the subs only vibrate when they are on...

If your box slides around, you have already violated "making your box into a projectile 101" and if it's not bolted down and your amp is attached, you are also violating "Let's make life easy for thieves 101"... so bolt your damn box down and life is good.


Laughing

_________________
Quote:
That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole.


RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog Visit poster's website
lumpy19
Criminal
Criminal


Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 97
City: Rochester

PostPosted: May 07, 2005 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All this discussion and I can't even mount it to the box because the sub box doesn't fit where I want it to go anyway. I was trying to avoid going custom on the box but it looks like I'm going to have to put some effort into mounting this sub in my boat. Crying or Very sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PortlandBrder
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 352
City: Portland

PostPosted: May 07, 2005 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dees, r u like 12. thats about the dumbest thing I've ever heard you F!%$ queer.
_________________
Im sick of seeing these posers with 50k boats who can't even wakeboard.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chavez
Ladies Man
Ladies Man


Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville

PostPosted: May 09, 2005 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lumpy19, that sucks, but now you can put some customization into it.

Maybe hide the wires under the board and such...

_________________
Quote:
That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole.


RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog Visit poster's website
Dees
Wakeboarder.com Freak
Wakeboarder.com Freak


Joined: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 3548
City: Nampa

PostPosted: May 09, 2005 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PortlandBrder wrote:
Dees, r u like 12. thats about the dumbest thing I've ever heard you F!%$ queer.


Way to put some thought process into that. Real mature. Nice one.

I am not 12 or queer, but I am one of those " posers with a 50k boats who can't even wakeboard" though. Thanks of asking.

_________________
haugy wrote:
Your 14, you masturbate. There's your answer.


jt09 wrote:
ont - like your money, your opinion loses value as it crosses the border.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Blog Visit poster's website AIM Address
DRAGON88
Ladies Man
Ladies Man


Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 8202
City: Portland, OR

PostPosted: May 09, 2005 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BUHAHAHAHA!!

PortlandBrder wrote:
Dees, r u like 12. thats about the dumbest thing I've ever heard you F!%$ queer.


How old are you?? Serious man, I haven't typed that way since I was 10... I agree with Dees, get off sound domains' sac...

Grow a pair and back up your statements with facts, not personal insults, not what other people say, cold hard indisputable facts!

_________________
wakeboards
wakeboarding
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Bruky
Guest





PostPosted: May 09, 2005 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read through this thread and after seeing PortlandBrder's recommendations, I went out to my boat and mounted my amps to some nice, sturdy pillows. Now I can sleep easy.
Back to top
lumpy19
Criminal
Criminal


Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 97
City: Rochester

PostPosted: May 15, 2005 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Final Update.

I got the sub/box into the boat and did not end up mounting the amp on the box. It slams and I'm very happy with it. The amp ended up under the spotter seat and the box over under the dash.

I ended up having to remove the driver seat and move the box around a bit to get it to finally fit but it's in there and works great Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
chavez
Ladies Man
Ladies Man


Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville

PostPosted: May 15, 2005 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lumpy19, good show. Glad to hear it bumps. Smile
_________________
Quote:
That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole.


RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Wakeboarder Forum Index -> Accessories All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Add To Favorites

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
             


Copyright 2012 - Wakeboarding - Wakeboarder.com - All Right Reserved
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group