Simer pump in v-drive storage, will it go BOOM?

dschock · Outlaw Joined: 07 Apr 2004 Posts: 135 City: Bellevue

I know that the Simer isn't ignition protected, but I can't help but consider it (over the Jabsco Ballast Puppy) because of the price.

I'm looking to install a custom ballast system and was wondering if I could get away with the Simer if I put it in one of the v-drive side storage compartments?

Anybody have any thoughts? Has anyone else put a simer near the engine?

actiondcpd · Posted: Oct 02, 2004 9:21 am Post subject:

I think they would be ok in the side compartment. I had two in mine for a short period of time. I moved them because I found a better spot to put them. I ended up putting them on the drivers side gunwale out of site and closer to all the stuff i wanted to fill. There aren't too many fumes that fill my side compartments and even if there were some I doubt it'd be enough for a bang.

tommyadrian5 · Addict Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 907

just don't run them right off the bat when you open the boat up for the day, once the boat is moving fast air circulates rapidly through the engine compartment, getting rid of any fumes, however i'd only be concerned about it being so close to your gas tank in a sealed area, because then a boom would be huge, as opposed to a ddrive where the boom is more of a "blow your engine cover off" rather than "blow your head and body apart"

Brit Rider · Posted: Oct 02, 2004 11:33 am Post subject:

dschock · Outlaw Joined: 07 Apr 2004 Posts: 135 City: Bellevue

Sounds good to me... maybe I'll just check out the area where i'm planning to install the pump... I'll close the boat up and then sniff around after a few days of sitting, see if I can smell any fumes near that area.

Also, anybody have any other objections for the Simer vs. the Jabso?

MrBlean · Posted: Oct 03, 2004 5:33 am Post subject:

Sure, there's always a small risk of fuel vapour in the bilge from a leaking fuel supply pipe (bad karma under any circumstances - Simer pump or not) but the need for a blower is a hang over from the days of carbs and, to a lesser extent, throttle body injectors. If you have an MPFI engine the fuel system is effectively sealed so gasolene vapour cannot escape and collect anywhere.

I never experienced any fuel smell around my LT1 engine.

tommyadrian5 · Addict Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 907

I agree, unless your boat is carbed, there is really no reason to ever use the blower. Even if you are paranoid, opening the engine cover for 15 seconds with any type of small breeze will change all the air in there. And if you trailer your boat any distance (20 feet to 20 miles) you are ventilating the engine compartment every step of the way.

However, all it takes is a small crack in that crappy vent hosing they use for fumes to escape from your fuel tank into the hull, and seeing that gasoline vapors sink they will accumulate instead of dissipate into the air. However, this is only applicable if the boat 1)sits on a lift or 2) sits in the water, where the boat would not move at all or ventilate before being started

MrBlean · Posted: Oct 03, 2004 5:57 am Post subject:

So, tommy, with the exceptions that you quote (boat left standing idle on water etc), do you agree that Simers being non-ignition protected is largely irrelevant?

tommyadrian5 · Addict Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 907

yea more or less as long as its a ventilated area and not a carbed boat I personally wouldn't worry about it

*disclaimer, in no way can my words be construed as advice, they are merely opinion

savage3221 · Posted: Oct 03, 2004 11:14 am Post subject:

BIZ · Outlaw Joined: 19 Jan 2004 Posts: 184 City: Dallas

Don't be ridiculous!

The reason there a thing called "ignition protection" is to guard agaist explosions. When the boat burns (not if) the insurance company will have a field day with you when you try to file a claim and they find a "spark producing" part found near a fume source. Don't "cheap out", it will cost you in the long run!

tommyadrian5 · Addict Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 907

MrBlean · Posted: Oct 03, 2004 10:41 pm Post subject:

If we are talking about inside the gas tank then sure, gas fumes are being produced all the time. But, like tommy, I'm really curious to see what "facts" you can supply, BIZ, that support your statement that implies boats are full of gas fumes.

Pray tell, where do these fumes escape from on an MPFI engine?

If it's really as bad as you suggest, I'm gonna stop driving my car. For, unlike a boat with a water cooled exhaust manifold, the manifold in my car almost glows red hot and with all those fumes around............ Exclamation

And who said it was opinion rather than fact?

BIZ · Outlaw Joined: 19 Jan 2004 Posts: 184 City: Dallas

Quote taken from Boatus.com "Many boaters have some serious misconceptions about fuel fumes in the bilge or engine compartment. One is that the engine blower will eliminate dangerous fuel vapors prior to starting a gasoline engine. In fact, any sort of fuel leak can create new fumes as quickly as the blower fan can clear them out, so the risk of explosion
is always present, whether the blower is running or not."
Check out this site http://powerboat.about.com/od/safety_education/a/fumes_explosion.htm

Mr Blean this will help you out with your "question" regarding your car and your "red hot" manifold. Also see the links to this website posted above.

salmon_tacos · Posted: Oct 04, 2004 7:57 am Post subject:

I saw a show recently where they tried to simulate an explosion at a gas station due to a cell phone. They couldn't get a cell phone to do anything. Actually, they couldn't get the gas vapor to ignite, even with a huge spark, unless the air-fuel ratio was very close to the stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1. That concentration of fuel in the air is VERY obvious and would require quite a bit of gasoline.

SO...I'd say that unless there is a leak in your system (which is certainly possible), you won't have a problem. The catch is that you need to check your engine before you start it or use your pumps, EVERY TIME you go out. Run the blower a bit to circulate some air since the vapors would have settled to the bottom of the bilge, open the hatches, and check for fumes. If you can't smell any in the vicinity of the pump, it's not going to ignite anything.

Oh, yeah: You didn't hear any of this from me. In fact, I never said it. If you blow up, it is not my fault because I'm just a figment of your imagination and not a qualified expert. As such, I shall not be held responsible for anything, ever, period. Razz

tommyadrian5 · Addict Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 907

BIZ, by the way, it isn't even in his engine compartment, its in his storage compartment, all he has to do is open the cover for a minute and wave a towel around to ventilate it.

In the bilge, different story, in a storage compartment, not a problem

BIZ · Outlaw Joined: 19 Jan 2004 Posts: 184 City: Dallas

tommyadrian5 I read the post.

The storage compartments are right next to the engine on a V-drive and the storage is not airtight. Do you think there will be any fumes in the storage compartments? BTW, the lowest point of that boat is right under the engine... that is where the fumes will settle!

and do you think he will

MrBlean · Posted: Oct 04, 2004 2:46 pm Post subject:

Interesting that your link talks about the potential problem of ignition DURING AND AFTER FUELLING i.e. when the fuel entering the tank is displacing vapour-laden air from the tank. That's a completely different scenario to a boat that does not have a fuel leak being started or a pump being run thereon.

You also quote that: "if there is a fuel leak, vapour can collect faster than the blower will remove it". So, WTF is the point of running the blower? If you have a fuel leak, it's end of story, blower or not.

Note the article also says "I have been told......" i.e. a bloke that knows my mate and is married to my sister's dog reckons.....

And, as per salmon-tacos point, it also says that the 1/4 cup of gasoline needs to be mixed with the "right amount of air".

As is often the case on this forum, you have used "facts" pertaining to one set of circumstances to justify your argument in a completely different set of circumstances.

May I ask, do you shut your engine off every time a boarder gets into the water?

DJew Jake · Posted: Oct 04, 2004 2:52 pm Post subject:

I can tell you from experience that getting the right gas to air mixture is very important if you have to much of either (and the boundaries are VERY CLOSE) it will not ignite ( i used to build potato cannons) we spent hours with half inch sparks getting us nowhere...

dschock · Outlaw Joined: 07 Apr 2004 Posts: 135 City: Bellevue

ooh, heated discussion... fun

how about this though:

1)does anybody here use a Simer near their engine compartment (or possibly even in it)?

2)has anybody here ever had any kind of problem with fumes igniting, under any circumstances?

3)does anyone here KNOW anyone who has had a problem with fumes igniting? (and "a bloke that knows my mate and is married to my sister's dog" doesn't count as knowing them)

I ask the latter two because up until this year our boat was an OB, so I didn't have to deal with that. Also, I personally have never known anyone who has blown up their boat (except for one yacht fire, but that's a different story).

salmon_tacos · Posted: Oct 04, 2004 7:14 pm Post subject:

I've heard of a couple of boats "blowing up" from very reputable sources. It does happen. Both times, however, they were old boats, owned by novice boaters, and probably were not well maintained (and therefore possibly had leaks in the fuel systems).

tommyadrian5 · Addict Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 907

MrBlean · Posted: Oct 05, 2004 12:00 am Post subject:

his debate is all based on individuals' perception of risk. Personally, I turn my engine off whenever a skier/boarder enters/leaves the water as the thought of shredding one of your friends "Jaws-style" doesn't bear thinking about. I have heard of prop accidents but never witnessed one

I never run my blower. I've never heard of a gasoline-based boat explosion. However, I have heard of several LPG-based explosions on pleasure craft due to leaky cookers or pilot lights going out.

The article cites taking precautions when re-fuelling. For anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together this is common sense - although I realise common sense is in remarkably uncommon supply.

It does not make reference to using the blower every time you start the boat, especially a small, relatively un-enclosed ski boat.

wesgardner · Posted: Oct 05, 2004 4:01 am Post subject:

Hey Jeff,

Do you know how much "lift" you can get out of the suction side of both Jabsco and Simer? Just curious...it might be that, as someone here has posted, mounting the pump closer to the sac results in the pump location way up forward (as in away from fumes)....the way my system might lay out will require a sac or two in the "trunk" (just forward of the fuel tank and a sac in the ski locker...I suppose I could either spring for a Jabsco and mount it anywhere or settle for a Simer and mount it "remote" up high in a side locker...

I'm not overly paranoid about gasoline fumes but I do have a carbed boat...there are no fuel leaks however there is a fair amount of fuel laying around somewhere as my fuel gauge rapidly drops as I get into the duel pumper.... Rolling Eyes

Wes

MrBlean · Posted: Oct 05, 2004 5:44 am Post subject:

Wes - I honestly thought I'd read that somewhere but I can't find it in the Jabsco data sheet which can be found at:

http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfo/overview/18220_BALLAST_PUPPY.PDF

What I can tell you is my pump was mounted in the rear left hand corner of my boat (at floor level, right next to the battery and the fuel tank) and drew its water from the engine raw water intake almost immediately above hull level. Allowing for the curved path, the distance from through-hull to pump was about 10-12 feet. It then pumped about 4 feet to the rear sac and 20 ft to the front sac. That gave me problems with differential flow requiring a restrictor valve in the line to the rear sac. So I changed the sac position to either side of the engine which gave more equal pipe lengths and in that configuration, adjusting ballast right/left was easier too.

As you will appreciate, it's the head differential that's important, not the pipe run length (as far as lift is concerned) so I wouldn't envisage any problems with a long feed run.

I would go and check it out for you with my pump and some hose but as you know, my boat has gone walkies.

tommyadrian5 · Addict Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 907

wes, my system is 4 sacs for a total of 2400 lbs, my pump is right in front of my engine (jabs) and i have combined about 40 feet of hose split thrice to reach all the sacs. takes about 20 minutes to fill, but i have no problems with lift or the long fill lines

jvanick · Posted: Oct 05, 2004 8:00 am Post subject:

Here's a pic of my simers in the side VLX compartment that passes through into the engine compartment... they've been there for 3 years now with no problems at all.

Also... I saw a boat have a fire in the engine compartment while I've been out... not pretty. Not sure what caused it, but it was definately an older boat. (I seem to remember it was a Mark Twain or something like that).

My blower hoses are fresh and new, and I run the blower if for no other reason than to keep the engine compartment cool. But I agree, if you're moving at all, you don't need to run it, the scoops in the front of the boat will push enough air in there to keep it clear of fumes.

Oh, and I've never smelt gas fumes (or exaust for that matter) fumes in the engine compartment.

-J

MrBlean · Posted: Oct 05, 2004 8:08 am Post subject:

Wes - I now realise I didn't really answer your question. If the trade off is a Simer mounted high or a Jabsco mounted low I wouldn't have any hesitation about mounting the Simer high, say under the gunnel. I'm sure it will prime in that position/height.

My only concern would be that if the pump is the highest point on the flow circuit, any air will collect at the pump and it may often dry start as a consequence.

Having said that, like our raw water pumps, unless I slackened a hose clamp on the input side, my Jabsco was always primed and ready to go whenever I inspected it.

Just to be doubly sure, I would ensure the feed lines to/from the pump went uphill slightly so that air wouldn't collect at the pump itself.

BIZ · Outlaw Joined: 19 Jan 2004 Posts: 184 City: Dallas

wesgardner · Posted: Oct 05, 2004 8:30 am Post subject:

Ah yes, the ole drawing board.....you'll find me there burning the midnight oil....

I just realized the other day my blower hoses are in shambles and the intakes are full of leaves from the previous owner...the list gets longer.... Rolling Eyes

Wes

tommyadrian5 · Addict Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 907

BIZ · Outlaw Joined: 19 Jan 2004 Posts: 184 City: Dallas

MrBlean · Posted: Oct 05, 2004 11:23 am Post subject:

Swass · Guest

Hell, we took precautions and we STILL have kids!

tommyadrian5 · Addict Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 907

Swass,