Canon 20D info

RD · Addict Joined: 22 Apr 2003 Posts: 626 City: Discovery Bay

The offical launch should be today or tomorrow and it's supposed to be abailable by late Sept. MSRP with the 17-85 kit lens is $1599 and it's expected to sell between $1300-1400. Here's a site which shows most of it's specs. There will be 2 new ef-s lens introduced as well.

http://www.sdcard.be/Nederlands/store/viewitem.asp?idproduct=8979348

Note Canon has raised the burst rate to 5 fps with a 25 frame buffer and increased the number of focus points to 9 but I still wouldn't expect this body to be anywhere near as fast as the 1 series.

BIGMAC · Posted: Aug 19, 2004 9:03 am Post subject:

Interesting
It sounds alot like the Mark II with less features.
One place it says continuous burst of 5 shots at 9 frames per second and then later on it says 5 fps shooting. It still has a 1.6 crop factor. I wonder why they couldn't make it a 1.3 factor?

salmon_tacos · Posted: Aug 19, 2004 10:48 am Post subject:

oldschoolripper · Outlaw Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 143 City: Tupelo

SO if this is true, it would be a much need upgrade for me over my rebel (but still no MKII which i can't afford). My rebel has a crappy burst rate and buffer, and also seems to have a terrible time focusing, particularly from chase boat.

BTW

Any advise for shooting from a chase boat or from the boat for that matter, i keep getting way too many OOF pics. I have tried using TV with only the center focus point, as well as sports mode, and also tried (from the rider boat of course) focusing then setting to manual focus. Look @ my gallery for some example pics, these are some of the best pics from about 700 shots. How may good shots should I expect, i.e. good shots for every bad shot? I recently got a 70-200 f4 L but i think it may have backfocus issues, so how can i check it? Sorry for all the questions but i am frustrated with my rebel right now. Any advice is appreciated.

thanks,
shelby

BIGMAC · Posted: Aug 19, 2004 1:42 pm Post subject:

JFYI The preview is now up at dpreview.

Josh R · Posted: Aug 20, 2004 5:20 am Post subject:

Check out http://www.luminous-landscape.com/ too. There is a hands on review on there now.
I'm personally not that interested in it. My next camera has to be a 1.3x crop and faster.

Want2ride · Outlaw Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 182 City: Layton, Utah

I'm with you Josh, It doesnt sound like that big of an upgrade from the rebel and I would also really like a 1.3 camera

pyrocasto · Posted: Aug 21, 2004 7:28 pm Post subject:

I think I'm waiting for the KM d7d. It doesnt come out till fall though. But hey, interchangable lenses, ccd stableization(no need for stablizing lenses), and hopefully all the features of the A2.
The 20D does look sweet but I think personally I would rather have all the features of A2.

John Jared · Addict Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 726 City: Round Lake, IL

Let me start by saying this will be my first step into photography and I know very little. I am going to purchase the Canon 20D with the EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM lens and spend all winter learning as much as I can. Do you think this lens would be a good one to start out with? I've seen a lot of pictures from BillJ and others so if any of you would mind weighing in please do. TIA

RD · Addict Joined: 22 Apr 2003 Posts: 626 City: Discovery Bay

The 17-85 will work for WB shooting even though it will be a tad short (even with the 1.6 crop 85mm is effective 136mm on the 20D) for shooting from a chase boat and a tad slow. (you really need f4 to shoot during the magic hours to keep the shutter speed up). I'd advise you to plan on getting a 70-200 f4 at least if you're serious about shooting wakeboarding. You're going to need the 17-85 for shooting everything else so it's a good investment. Multiple lenses are a fact of life in the DSLR world!

The 7D/3D rumors are interesting. That's what I really want, a baby 1.3X mkII. Actually many of the reviewers are calling the 20D that already but I'm not sure it's there yet. It will be cool to throw my 300mm with both the extenders on the 1.6X 20D - 1344mm!

Pyrocasto:

"The 20D does look sweet but I think personally I would rather have all the features of A2."

I'm sorry but the A2 doesn't even come close to the Rebel feature-wise, it's just a P&S with 8 megapixels. The builtin anti-shake is interesting but far from proven technology. I know I'm sounding negative here but specifications are misleading and don't reflect real world handling. Just the EVF alone procludes it from being responsive enough for serious work. 1/10th to 3/10ths of a second shutter lag? The 20D is 65 milleseconds, the mkII is in the 50's!

The d7d will make some waves and impact the industry because of the in cam IS but let's face it Nikon can barely stay with Canon right now, it's going to be a while before the rest of the industry catches up as well. Try a DLSR and I think you'll see what I'm talking about.

pyrocasto · Posted: Sep 13, 2004 6:05 pm Post subject:

RD, I HIGHLY doubt the rebel has close to it, but you can compare them yourself. I dont see how you think the evf would stop it from serious work. And you can take off as much shutter lag as you want by changing the settings, such as manual focas, which is what you would use for wakeboarding, or at least you should. And the lag in your fingers is more than 65 milliseconds so who cares. I have an a2 and take some great shots. I just wish it was a real slr that could get me less noise at higher isos like the 20d does.

And anti shake helps out alot, I know from expierience, and everyone I have met that have used an A1/A2 have said the same thing.

Josh R · Posted: Sep 14, 2004 2:25 am Post subject:

Personally for me, an EVF would rule any camera out for serious work, as would that sort of lag. Just me.

RD · Addict Joined: 22 Apr 2003 Posts: 626 City: Discovery Bay

pyrocasto:

No problem, I can see you've got it all figured out!

pyrocasto · Posted: Sep 14, 2004 12:57 pm Post subject:

RD, I dont have it all figured out, I was just posting my opinion. I have never actually used the Rebel, but have seen the reviews and specs. I just based it on all the data.

A2, could not take as good of pics in my opinion mainly for the noise factor. And there is a small shutter lag like you said.

The Rebel though cannot take video, or time lapse without a compter, and is 6mp instead of 8mp. Unfortunatly, if you want IS you have to pay high price for each lense, when the A2 has it on the CCD.

Thats all I got right now. I would like to get the 20D, or D7D soon though to get more professional looking pictures, that I can blow up bigger, or take pics at high ISO's.

RD · Addict Joined: 22 Apr 2003 Posts: 626 City: Discovery Bay

Pyro,

Forget the specs & data, try a hands on test of one of the Canon or Nikon DSLRs with a good fast lens and then come back and tell us what you think. I think your opinion will be radically different. But by all means keep shooting with the A2, I didn't say its impossible to get good shots with it, I just don't agree with the logic of your original post where you compared the A2 to the 20D.

I will be getting my 20D tomorrow so I'll let you all know how I think it compares to the 10D and 1D mkI.

Mike Isler · Moderator Joined: 11 Jan 2003 Posts: 718 City: New York

pyrocasto, I'd second everything that RD and Josh R said...it's absolutely correct.

Electronic viewfinders (EVFs) make it nearly impossible to manual focus, and also don't give you a good view of what's going on. The shutter lag on those cameras is CONSIDERABLY longer than that of any DSLR. If lag wasn't a factor, then camera manufacturers wouldn't try to keep lowering it. When I switch from using my Nikon F5 (~70ms) to using my Nikon D2H (~37ms), I notice the difference and have to adjust my shooting style to accomodate that. When you're talking about the difference from 300ms (3/10th of a sec) to 60ms, that is an enormous difference.

IS (Canon's Image Stabilization) or VR (Nikon's Vibration Reduction) aren't nearly as much of a factor as many marketing types would like you to believe. I only have one lens with VR on it, and I rarely use it. You only need stabilization if you're shooting from 1/8th to about 1/125th, without a tripod. With wakeboarding, you're almost never using those shutter speeds. The only time I use VR is when I'm shooting from a very unstable platform and just want things in the viewfinder to be a little more steady (for example, shooting from sitting on top of a boat tower going 25mph, or out of a helicopter).

The Canon Rebel will give you equal quality pictures to the EOS-10D. It's the same internals. There is considerably less noise in Rebel images than those from the A2. It's a factor of pixel pitch, or the size of each individual pixel on the chip. For example, the A2 crams 8MP into a 9mm x 7mm CCD. The Rebel crams 6.3MP into a 23mm x 15mm CCD...that means that each pixel on the Rebel's CCD is much larger than that of the A2. Larger pixels mean less noise and more detail, regardless of the Megapixel count. See here: http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Camera_System/Sensor_Sizes_01.htm .

RD · Addict Joined: 22 Apr 2003 Posts: 626 City: Discovery Bay

Mike,

What's up? Will Nikon be introducing some new bodies at Photokina? That's the rumor I've been hearing.

BIGMAC · Posted: Sep 14, 2004 7:44 pm Post subject:

RD, Let us know your first impressions when that puppy comes in!!

Mike Isler · Moderator Joined: 11 Jan 2003 Posts: 718 City: New York

RD, I've been hearing a lot of rumors... one rumor says listen for an announcement Sept 15th or 16th! We'll see....

oldschoolripper · Outlaw Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 143 City: Tupelo

My new little friend...........

oldschoolripper · Outlaw Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 143 City: Tupelo

Now if I only new how I was gonna pay for him?

I will do some wakeboard shooting as soon as the hurricane winds and rain clear out of North MS (hopefully by this weekend).

I'll let you no my initial impressions for wakeboard shooting with this thing then.
I will say the autofocus, and burst speed seem really great so far, as does viewfinder brightness.

The shutter is LOUD also, but I like it! Laughing

BIGMAC · Posted: Sep 15, 2004 2:52 pm Post subject:

oldschoolripper, NICE!!!

RD · Addict Joined: 22 Apr 2003 Posts: 626 City: Discovery Bay

ON STEROIDS!

oldschoolripper · Outlaw Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 143 City: Tupelo

That is definitely the Hubble Satelite/telescope you have there! Shoot that thing from inside the boat and you sure don't have to worry about cropping, huh. I bet all you see are the riders eyeballs!

What are your first impressions RD? My first impression is WHOA! I got to shoot this afternoon in HORRIBLE Light and wind (had to shoot ISO 1600 most of the afternoon), but I am already loving this thing. It was cool though because Dean Lavelle stopped by on his way thru town and kicked it with us (wouldn't you know he rode last in pitch black dark almost).

The 20D is night and day compared to my old Digi Reb. It is as close to a 1D MK II as you can get for the price. The autofocus rocks, burst rate is good, high ISO usability is EXCELLENT. A most wonderful camera. My only problem, I need more CF cards now! I blew thru 2 gigs in 1 hour, and that was after erasing alot of pics. Here is a pic from today ISO 800, 1/2000, f3.5, Jpeg Large, Aperture Priority Mode, Manual Focus, Cropped severely and web resized

oldschoolripper · Outlaw Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 143 City: Tupelo

Here's Dean Lavelle by the way ripping it up night surfing style.....

RD · Addict Joined: 22 Apr 2003 Posts: 626 City: Discovery Bay

My initial feeliings about the 20D:

I went from a 10D (which I hardly remember) to a 1D so my opinions about the 20D reflect my experience with the 1D.

Build: Solid with similar finish to the 1D although buttons/knobs etc not as robust/solid feeling. This body is SMALL! (that what I said I wanted!). It's doesn't handle like a 1 series but it is light. People with big hands that are used to 1 series bodies will not like this cam IMHO.

AF: Fast with all my lenses, if there is a speed difference from the 1D I sure can't see/feel it. I haven't shot enough to determine if AF is dead bang accurate like the 1D was. In fact I'm not sure the auto AF point selection is (at least the way I shot it today) Haven't had a chance to try AI servo yet but selecting focus points with the "joystick" finally works the way it should and is a feature I will now start using more.

Shutter: Fast, with no lag / blackout - again no perceptual difference to me from the 1D. People are claiming it's too noisy, but it sounds very similar to the 1D so it doesn't bother me. Burst mode does feel slower at 5 fps but to be honest 8+ fps on the 1D was always a bit intimidating anyway. Unless you're shooting one of those instructional sequences I'm not sure you need 8 fps all that much. I know I'll be happy with five plus and it's way more controllable on this body. On the 1D you press the shutter button you get 8-10 frames before you can release, on the 20D it's easy to get 3-5 frame bursts.

Viewfinder: another thing I was worried about. Nothing like a FF viewfinder & 1.3X crop to spoil you. Well the 1.6X crop is what it is but the viewfinder on the 20D is great. I looked through it a lot today and it's very bright and clear. I remember how much better the VF was on the 1D from the 10D when I got it. I'm not conscience of any difference with the 20D VF after using the 1D for so long so that's all I can ask for.

Flash: WOW, it works great, It's got no power but for close up fill flash it blew me away. I may sell the Metz and get a 580EX if the builtin flash is any indication of how good ETTL II works.

Image: Well I took it over to the Lane with the 70-200 f2.8 and my 1.4X convertor. The lighting sucked since it was directly overhead. I don't know whether it was the 1.4X convertor, the jpeg settings (I usually shoot RAW), the AF, contrast or what but the images I got today looked a little soft/washed out. I didn't bother to mess with them much in PS since I'm so used to the RAW convertor. I'm not too worried though as the images people are posting from this body are phenominal plus the 1D has a weaker AA filter and is known for extremely sharp shots right out of the cam, which is what I'm used to seeing.

All in all I think this cam is a winner. I'm amazed that a $1500 camera can even remotely hang with a Pro body. Anyhow here's one of the shots I took, please don't think this is all this cam is capable of.

RD · Addict Joined: 22 Apr 2003 Posts: 626 City: Discovery Bay

The battle is heating up:

http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=2&productNr=D2X

Next up for Canon a purported 22mp D2 . . . .

Stay tuned!

Mike Isler · Moderator Joined: 11 Jan 2003 Posts: 718 City: New York

RD, I was pretty accurate about when that announcement was gonna be made...I'm on a waiting list myself.

pyrocasto · Posted: Sep 16, 2004 10:57 am Post subject:

RD, Mike Isler, I was just thinking as in options, about everyting and not just pictures. But I agree anytime that the dslr will take much better pics than the a2, which has a butt load of noise.
RD, oldschoolripper, those lenses look wicked! I want SO bad to try it out some time but I dont think the stores around here have them in stock. I will have to keep searching I guess. Have fun with your cameras!

Mike Isler, BEAUTIFUL pics on your website!

oldschoolripper · Outlaw Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 143 City: Tupelo

I love all this Canon/Nikon battling. It makes the technology upgrades come so much faster! What will they come out with after canon releases the 22MP monster?

And how in the world will we be storing all the pics we take? I'll need a 500 GB CF card and a 10 Terabyte Hard Drive.

Crazy

RD · Addict Joined: 22 Apr 2003 Posts: 626 City: Discovery Bay

At first I was surprised at the 5 fps framerate of the Nikon but in reading further it has a crop mode where it get's down to 6+ mp and allows 8 fps. That's really a great feature because most of the time you just don't need (or want to have to work with) 12 mp images. I think Nikon will be catching up rapidly to Canon (who knows maybe passing) as evidenced by this body - that should mean better stuff for us all. Let's face it the film version of the Canon 1 series is well under 2 grand, how long can it be before the digitals follow.

Not til January on the new Nikon though (shades of the original 1D announcement)!

Next up Photokina, hopefully some new lens announcements (and maybe the 1Ds replacement) then.

pyrocasto · Posted: Sep 16, 2004 6:35 pm Post subject:

yeah I guess I will have to upgrade my comp to handle the new 30mb pictures.
Sorage wont be bad though, a 4gb card with a 60gb pocket hard drive.