Topic for 7/23- Gun Education

Dragonlady8 · Guest

NOT CONTROL, But EDUCATION (Questions at end of Article)

Grieving mom: Son, 5, shot sister
By Edgar Sandoval | South Florida Sun-Sentinel
Posted July 23, 2004

HOMESTEAD -- Tracy Davis is struggling to come to terms with two unbelievable tragedies: the loss of her daughter by gunshot and the knowledge that she must help her son live with the painful memory of accidentally killing his sister.

About 9 a.m. Thursday, Davis said, her 5-year-old son fatally shot 3-year-old Literica with a handgun that belonged to her boyfriend. The girl was airlifted to Miami Children's Hospital in critical condition. She died shortly before noon.

Hours later, a shocked and grieving Davis returned home.

"My little boy told me he did not mean to do it," Davis said. "But I won't let him live with the guilt. It was not his fault."

The shooting occurred shortly after Davis' boyfriend arrived at her house at 708 SW Ninth Ave., she said. That's when her son picked up the gun from the floor, thinking it was a toy, and accidentally shot his sister in the head. The girl collapsed.

"It was an accident," Davis said, fighting back tears. "My son shot his sister. I never knew of a gun inside the house."

Miami-Dade Police detained a man in his early 20s, believed to be Davis' boyfriend, for questioning. But police remained tight-lipped Thursday about what had occurred and said no charges had been filed. The case remained under investigation as a homicide Thursday night, said Miami-Dade Police spokesman Joey Giordano.

Homestead Police responded to the scene shortly after the shooting, but turned the case over to Miami-Dade Police when the girl died. The Homestead Police Department does not have a homicide division.

When Davis returned from the hospital, her cousin, Trelody King, 18, held her tightly.

Davis tried to remember what happened, but found it difficult because she was in shock at the time of the shooting.

She had to remind herself to be strong because she has two other children, the 5-year-old and a 2-year-old girl. But Davis was certain about one thing.

"Avoid all guns, even if you have them to defend yourself," she said. "Especially around kids."

Experts agree. Paul Marchione, executive director of Common Sense About Kids and Guns, a non-partisan Washington D.C.-based group, said he constantly posts stories on his Web site about children who have found guns at home and picked them up unaware they are loaded.

"A child's natural inclination is to pull the trigger," Marchione said. "Children as young as 2 and 3 years old are able to pull a trigger."

In January, a 3-year-old Miami boy, Travis Jenkins Jr., found his father's gun in the car and accidentally shot himself in the head. The boy's father, Travis Jenkins Sr., took him to Jackson Memorial Hospital, where the child died three days later.

In March, Jenkins reached a deal with prosecutors that will keep him out of prison in exchange for five years of probation. He pleaded no contest to culpable negligence charges, agreed to give up his gun and concealed weapons licenses and perform 200 hours of community service.

Gun safety advocates say those kinds of accidents are preventable if parents make sure children don't have access to guns.

Many neighbors in this Homestead community said the advice came too late for this family. They've promised to help Davis through her ordeal with a helping hand and food. They also are raising money to help a single mother who was already struggling to support her children.

Late Thursday, neighbors arrived to help. Gary Johnson, 50, a neighbor who heard the commotion in the morning and ran toward Davis' house, returned with a broom, a mop and bucket to clean the floor.

Another neighbor, Sharice Davis, 42, who is not related to Tracy, carried an empty plastic milk gallon and collected money. "Any little bit helps," she said.

Davis said for now she will welcome all the help she can get while she struggles with Literica's death.

"She was a nice little girl, my baby," she said.

Her neighbors said they will always remember the child smiling and playing with her siblings around the block.

"My mama always said, `Situations don't get better, unless we do something about it,'" Johnson said. "It makes no sense. She was a little ol' baby. She was a sweet little baby, too."

Again this about the need the education and Parental interaction.

Does anyone find this a little disturbing that a 5 yr old would pick up a gun and point it at someone?
Even if it was a toy, does this not show how our society is failing to shield acts of violence from children.
Maybe I'm just being naive about little kids and violence of todays world. But somewhere along the lines someone dropped the ball on teaching right from wrong.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

No. I don't find that disturbing at all. It's in human nature to play at destruction. I find it more disturbing that some Sh@t head left a gun ON THE FLOOR.

We have a fit if a woman shows a breast, the universal symbol of femininity and life, on television, but we don't mind a constant barrage of shootings, stabbings, and stuff like that. What do you expect?

Bullets going into people in hatred-OK
Penis going into someone in love- Horrible, society is crumbling! Help!

There's your "moral clarity."

rjva · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 4:10 am Post subject:

cameraboy, Yes, the boyfriend should be shot!

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Ah, rjva, thanks for supporting my position, in more ways than you realize.

EMP912 · Addict Joined: 28 May 2004 Posts: 500 City: Greenback

TV and video games are getting out of hand.
I remember when I was kid the video games that we played and what was on TV.
Talk about society going down the tubes. Look at it now, it is getting out of hand.
Yes I agree with Camaraboy about violence on TV is getting out of hand; but I also
feel that sex and nudity is as well.
I do believe that it is the responsibility of the parent to set morals and guidelines
for their children to follow not TV and video games.
I am guilty of watching TV shows and playing video games that I probably shouldn't
but as my child gets older and starts to understand what is happening I will have to
keep that in check. It is my responsibility not the teachers and the government.

I was raised around guns. I remember shooting them when I was 5 years old. I
was taught that they where not toys to play with I knew what would happen to me
if I went and got it with out an adult with me. Lock the guns up and don't keep them
loaded. Common sense people come on. The dumbing down of America.
Some people need to be held responsible for their actions.

It is just to bad that it is the inocent children that have to pay for stupid parents.

Leggester · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 5:30 am Post subject:

I agree w/CB. Kids are going to play with anything, period.

The jackass of a supposed Boy Friend should be charged with negligent homocide at the very least.

I've been around guns, real and toys all my life and have never shot anyone.

jason_ssr · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 6:15 am Post subject:

Guns are the paradox of modern civilized society. On one hand, you shouldnt need them in a civilized world, but on the other youre a fool if you dont have them to protect those you love from those who arent participating in the civilized society. Having them handy in a drawer is a risk to children, while locking them in a case with a trigger lock defeats the purpose of quick protection. How do you protect everyone AND be protected from criminals?

I think the key is REAL exposure for the children. I remember my curiousity of guns at a very young age. My moms parents lived in a very rural area, and had different guns leaning against the wall in the corner of some of the rooms in there house. I was always wanting to play with them. One evening we were sitting down to a dinner when my grandfather hear commotion in their hen house out back. He went and looked and came running back into the house to get his gun. He told me to go with him. I asked him what was going on and he quietly murmered, "coyotes". We walked out there and he raised that gun up and.. BOOM! click click..BOOM! At that moment that gun was not a toy to me. It didnt sound like a gun on TV. My grandfather wasnt shooting from the hip, and he wasnt having fun like the tough guys in the movies. The sound that the coyote made as it was hit in the hind quarters wasnt that of him saying, "you got me" like we did with paint guns, it was the sound of pain. Watching my grandfathers body jolt back as the gun went off sent chills down my spine. My grandfathers face, which was always a happy smile in my presence, was concentrated and serious.

Instantly my view had changed about real guns. they were no longer the instrament of TV heros, they were the instrament of destruction. They were a neccesary tool of men, with a loud bark and cold intensity. I was 14 before I ever shot a firearm, and that was with my dad in a very controlled invoronment.

I think children should be exposed to the gun whether outside or at a range. Seeing it do what it does separates the movies from reality.

And, for the record, I am one of the gunless fools. I know I cant protect my loved ones from an armed criminal, but I honestly struggle with the possibility of pulling the trigger. Until I come to grips with that responsibility, I wont buy one.

Leggester · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 6:21 am Post subject:

Well Jason, as far as that goes, I'm an "unarmed" fools also. With many pistols and rifles, none of them are for the supposed self protection. They are always locked up with the ammunition locked seperately in another place.

If an armed animal comes into my house, I'll just have to take my chances.

( But I do have swords in the bedroom, tomahawks in the living room, knives in the kitchen, canes in the living room, and we won't even get started on what's in the walk out basement )

jason_ssr · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 6:59 am Post subject:

Yeah, I only have guns for protection, and they are connected just under my shoulders. Unfortunately they dont have the man stopping power other guns do. Guess I need to hit the weights more. Laughing

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

Leggester, why do you have swords in the bedroom? You and the wifey got some sick S&M sh*t going on in there or what?!?! Shocked

jryoung · Ladies Man Joined: 19 Mar 2004 Posts: 7664 City: Man Jose

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

I have guns. And I have ammo within reach of where the guns are stored.

So did my father.

When I was old enough to understand, he showed me where the guns were, and told me in no uncertain terms what a bullet does to a human body. He told me I could see the guns anytime I wanted, as long as I asked, but if I touched the guns without asking, I would get the worst beating of my life.

After getting a graphic description of death and a description of a bullet tearing through human flesh at age 4 or so, I had a healthy respect for guns, and a little bit of a fear of my father. Never played with the guns without asking and being supervised.

My guns are in a case, and when I have kids I'll put a lock on the case. The real reason to guarentee the right to bear arms is not really to protect property from criminals, but to protect citizens from their own governments.

If somebody breaks into my house, if the barking and attacking dog, screaming wife, lights coming on, and me with the knife I keep under the bed don't deter the criminal, that's one determined burgular who is probably under contract to kill me anyway, and by then he will have to do so in front of the whole neighborhood. So I don't worry about having to have quick acess to my "gat'."

Leggester · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 7:37 am Post subject:

Hehehehe, keeps them ( the swords ) up out of reach of the young one. She still has to use shinais. Wink

EMP912 · Addict Joined: 28 May 2004 Posts: 500 City: Greenback

Not to long ago my wife swore that she somebody in the house.
So I get my shotgun out and I start check everything out. I was very scared to say
the least. I kept thinking actually what if gets me from behind and gets the gun.
Luckily no one was in the house and nothing happened. I will still have gun but I
need to teach my wife how to use it that way I will just go out with bat and she can
stay and kill who ever comes in the room besides me. Just kinda scary thinking
about all that because I have a reason and somebody more important than myself
to think about now and that is my son.

goofyboy · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 7:47 am Post subject:

i am with cameraboy on this one... cept, my grandfather told me the story of how those were his guns, not mine. if i wanted to look at them, i had to ask him and he would show me and he promised me that one day he would TEACH me how to use them correctly. i have always been comfortable around guns, when i know i am around people that know how to use them SAFELY. gun education werks, as well as following safety guidelines.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

I have actually pulled my shotgun on an intruder. It's a funny story, I'll elaborate if anyone's interested.

Leggester · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 9:07 am Post subject:

Please, unless I've already read it in NRA mag. Wink

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

True story, I swear. I was 22, my 9th and last semester in college, christmas break, I'm living with some guys off campus. Everybody went home except me. I was in the house, 2:30 am, in bed with my girl. I hear footsteps on the porch. I hear the screen door open, then the door handle turn. It's locked, and I hear two voices, and then somebody starts busting the door in.

The lock never worked right, and if you forgot your key, you could just force the door open. The door opens, and now I'm scared. I get my shotgun from the case under my bed, and load it with.........#9 bird shot, the only shells I had, left over from skeet shooting in October.

I hear them come up the stairs. I'm totally freaked out now. I'm thinking "It's christmas break in a college town, middle of the night, they think everyone has gone home for the hollidays, and these guys are probably going around robbing the empty houses"

I hear them in the hall, and I hear them open up my roomates trunk, which he kept in the hall/living room type area. I'm terrified now, because I realize that as soon as I open the door, somebodies probably going to get very hurt, and I am going to spend the night in jail probably. I take a deep breath, kick my door open, step out into the hall/living room, shuck a round into my gun, and yell, in my deepest voice, "HEY!"

2 hippies are crouching there with a bag of pot in their hands. They almost crapped their pants. Turns out that my one of my roomates, who had quite the "herbal hobby," couldn't fly home with his stash, so he left it at home, and told his pot-head buddies that they could come over and get it and pay him later. He also told them that the lock doesn't work, and the door gives if you push on it.

Being a pot head, he forgot to tell me, and he forgot to tell his friends that I would be home and armed.

They were just like "uh, Amos said we could come get his pot, man, we're sorry" in that stoner voice. Then they left, and I went to bed glad that I didn't accidently bag my first North American Pot Smoking Dred-Headed White Creeper.

True story.

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

cameraboy, you talk about thinning the herd in the other thread... man you just missed a chance to thin it by 2. Laughing

Leggester · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 9:54 am Post subject:

Classic! Pure classic!

matt 4 · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 9:56 am Post subject:

its a loose loose situation, you eather have guns, and keep them locked up like a responsible firearm owner should and not have the access to it in that "quick time of need" or you have a loaded gun in an unsafe environment. like in a nightstand where children can access. being 21 and an aved hunter i have many guns, rifles and shotguns. i will never own a hand gun simplly BC the only thing those are good for is killing people. every gun i own is locked up in a firesafe but one, i have one rifle (270) on a gun rack above the head of my bed unloaded with a 5 bullet clip in my nightstand. the gun is high enough where i have to stand on my bed to get it so its out of reach from kids, then they have to figure out how to load it, take the safety off, open the bolt action chamber, close the chamber with a bullet in it. then pull the trigger.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

matt 4 · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 10:32 am Post subject:

but could you reach it. hell i am 6 foot even and i have to stand on my bed and its still like a foot over my head, (12 foot cealings SP)

Lauren · Criminal Joined: 28 Jun 2004 Posts: 53

MinnDizzyG · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 11:36 am Post subject:

aceyx · Addict Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 770 City: dirty

when i was about 12 i did a few match competitions. i was only using an RWS air rifle, but i learned a lot from watching the older guys about proper handling.

to be honest, even when people point guns (loaded or unloaded) at people it makes me really uneasy.

i'm only against guns when they're in the hands of stupid/irresponsible people. unfortunately, our law doesn't discriminate against morons.

churchy · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 11:48 am Post subject:

Keep in mind one thing.... IF GUNS ARE OUTLAWED, THEN ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS... how fair would that be?

Dragonlady8 · Guest

Stephan · Guest

I completed the Ca State Hunter Safety Course when I was 11 years old. I wanted to learn how to be safe because like Jason I'd seen what a gun can do to a creature. Obviously gun play is glorified and accepted but for some reason I always knew that there was a certain part of the atic that I didn't F with. It all comes down to responsible portrayal by parents. Early on my dad showed me the guns, I was in awe as a 6 year old, my dads a bad ass! He also showed me how to look but don't touch. I eventually learned through family and friends how to be responsible. Everytime I pick up a gun, even if I watched it be unloaded, I open up the action or whatever it has & double check for myself, even pump it(shotgun) to make sure. Yesterday at a friends house one guy was playing around with this broken bb gun, he pointed it right at me. I about freaked on him, I yelled at him to never point a gun even if it's broke, fake or made out of play-doh. We just learned that guns don't get pointed at people, hence why I don't paintball.

MinnDizzyG · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 1:59 pm Post subject:

Stephan,
Interesting that you mention paintball. While walking to the Metrodome for Vikings games I used to joke that with my yellow and purple pellets if I had my way no fan would enter the dome in anything but Vikes colors. Wink

However, in seriousness, shooting someone with a paintball gun outside of a licensed field (with some exceptions) is considered assault with a deadly weapon and is a felony.

matt 4 · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 2:41 pm Post subject:

i got arrested my junior year of HS for shooting a teachers house with PB guns. it was something like discharging a firearm out a moving vehicle. she wanted to press charges but we talked her out of it by cuttting grass for about a year

Leggester · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 2:45 pm Post subject:

Unfortunately Dlady, many children are not taught about guns at all these days.

Dragonlady8 · Guest

Leggester, nor manners or respect for that matter. Confused

matt 4 · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 2:52 pm Post subject:

but as far a guns go, i am the safest person in the world with a gun, the day i bring a loaded gun out of a dove field, out of the duck blind, or out of the deer stand is the day i quit hunting. and i will never go hunting with anybody that is neglegant with a firearm i dont care if they have a million acres in texas and wanted me to hunt it for free. they can F themselves a human life is too valuable to risk with stupidity

Leggester · Posted: Jul 23, 2004 3:11 pm Post subject:

True, Dlady, True. But as proved by other posts, most don't deserve it anyway.

Actually, I'm quite disgusted with the teaching of kids for the past 20 years. Idols used to be Gene Autry, Roy Rogers... ... Gentlemen in every sense of the word. Now, with PC, everyone is supposed to understand everyone else.

Well, to hell with that! Bad is bad and good is good. Alicia is growing up that way. We watch movies were the good guy wins. The good guy wears white hats ( unless he's Paladine or Hugh O'Brien ). Ali isi allowed to watch things that actually have a moral. Like Monsters INC, Shreck, Starship Troopers... ...

I read her early Heinlien for a bedtime story too.

Gawd, I'm a lousy parent by today's standards!

Matt, I agree. The first thing we learned was to load only when hunting and unload when done. We used to be allowed to hunt before scholl when I was 12. Go down to the creek bed and see if we could scare up some pheasant.