HELP: Pro-Americans!

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Forwaken- Same here. It was a killer class. I had a great teacher and still the class was just plain hard.

Todd- I respect your opinions but I have a feeling that a majority of the people speaking out against the war are falling victim to the mob mentality. I seriously doubt a majority of them know all the facts or even most of the facts. As with most decisions people make this is based off their world view and biases.

Todd Armstrong · Addict Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Posts: 758 City: Battle Ground

Nor*Cal you said " I also believe that those not supporting the war are often misinformed or are mislead." I think the exact opposite, I feel anyone who supports this war 100% are choicing to either overlook facts or ignoring them. To be behind America 100% is perfect I am and I wish everone was. But to be behind Bush's actions and thoughts 100%, is simply incorrect to me.

If you look at your average American, then only info they have gathered is from broadcast TV. They don't paint he whole picture, just what they want to paint.

Todd Armstrong · Addict Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Posts: 758 City: Battle Ground

Nor*Cal I completly agree, alot of protestors are just doing it tp be civailly disobediant. There are protestors who know their facts and are against American's actions because it is wrong to them.

ohsix · Posted: Mar 22, 2003 1:44 pm Post subject:

Todd- i admire the fact that you do not base yuour opinion solely what you see on t.v. Exactly which of Bush's actions and thoughts do you believe are incorrect and what is the coorect alternative to them?

Ralph · Posted: Mar 22, 2003 1:49 pm Post subject:

Wow, great debate! Good work Todd.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Todd- The protestors are ignoring 12 years of violated UN treaties. The USA signed a cease-fire not a peace agreement. Evidence of WMD??? Talk to the Kurds who had thier families gased.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Todd- You are correct in the fact that the USA has overlooked the authority of the UN.

Todd Armstrong · Addict Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Posts: 758 City: Battle Ground

There are alot of countries being brutalized by their leaders, how come Iraqi gets to be liberated? Why are we not stoping korea from producing Nucular weapons, of India?

What about the American public school system and that could use some the the money Bush is wasting on each of those $1.4 million tomahawks. There is alot of other caused tha could be addressed before we worry about Saddam

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

N. Korea is a stalled issue. They are willing to talk to the USA but not the UN.

As for domestic issues those things are being addressed as well. Schools are traditionally a responsibility of the state.

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

Ok, well the troops are choosing whether they fight or not, their leaders do, so many people protest against the government's decision and not against the troops since they have no decision in the matter. It's their job to follow their leader's orders so I hold no grudge against them. If the troops interpret it in a way that is degrading to them, that's their fault.

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

One question I have is why hasn't Bush come out, now that the war is started, and reveal his evidence of Iraq's WMD's? I would fully support a war if he did, and I'm sure much of the world and the UN would support it too. We keep claiming taht he has them but he hasn't used them, unless you count a couple of scuds as WMD, and I truely think he doesn't have any.

forwaken · Addict Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 635 City: Turlock, CA

Jello-
Those scuds were the same ones he wasn't supposed to have or he was destroying. They are an illegal missle according to the U.N. not our government. Iraq has already fired off more than one of these missles towards Kuwait and innocent civilians (maybe they were aimed at us and went arry though) that they are were telling the U.N. inspectors they didn't have. This conflict has already proved that he was hidding weapons of one kind, what's next is what the newly designed special forces are seeking out. I am no physic, so I cant say they will find them, but it is my personal belief that it is only a matter of time. You still didn't answer my question.

Todd-
I am under the impression you do not publicly protest the war, am I wrong, let me know?

Agreed with Ralph-
Great debate to all, very profressional, this is a prime example of education at work. I enjoy when people can discuss what's on thier minds with out getting all butt hurt about it and taking it too personal.

Andy · Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 43 City: Syracuse,NY

If he doesnt have any WMD why didnt he let the UN inspectors into his country. If he would have let the UN inspectors into Iraq in the first place this whole thing could have been over.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

I've stated these 2 facts several times.

Ask the Kurds in Northern Iraq about WMD. Remember Saddam gased thousands of them

An Iraqi defector has written a book detailing Saddam's pursuit to get Nuclear weapons.

Both those are public record.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

John- By revealing evidence during war time it is possible they might comprimise an internal source or technologies that have allowed them to gather evidence. I'm sure if Bush and Blair are risking political suicide the evidence is sufficient and will validate the action.

The presented evidence however is good enough to satisfy. the problem being, the international media has portrayed Saddam as a cooperative party. He has prevented UN inspectors from doing thier jobs. Saddam moved those HUMAN SHIELD protestors in front of military bases and targets. He is not concerned with meeting the criteria that was set forth by any of the UN resolutions passed in the last 12 years.

Todd Armstrong · Addict Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Posts: 758 City: Battle Ground

Andy, Iraq let the inspectors in, learn the facts before you state your opinon.

forwakin I don't protest the war, I just don't 100% agree with it. I am a person who needs to be convinced by facts to stand behind somthing, not just told to support it because.

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

ohsix · Posted: Mar 22, 2003 6:23 pm Post subject:

He did let them into the country he just wouldn't give them access to inspect ALL thier weapons. If he had nothing to hide why wouldn't he let them see ALL his weapons?
Also he has launched something like 12 scud missles at Kuwait as of last night. Those are weapons of mass destruction so there is your proof jello. What more do you want?
Even if he didn't have weapons of mass destruction the fact that he would let the weapons inspectors have access to all of his weapons was in violation of the cease-fire 12 years ago. How many laws does he have to break before some of you will believe he needs to be stopped?

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

A scud is hardly a WMD and is not a threat to the US. I want proof of his attempts or possession of real WMD, such as a nuclear weapon. So far I have not seen anything that would justify the bombing of another country, and that includes his breaking of UN laws.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

John read the book I've mentioned. Again it is called Saddam's Bombmaker by Khidhir Hamza. That should give you an account of the Iraqi Nuclear Program.

Also Israel at one time bombed an Iraqi Nuclear Reactor.

As far as breaking UN treaties. There were something like 19 disarmament resolutions passed since 1991. None of these resolution were upheld. Thats evidence of 19 violations. Iraq kicked the first wave of inspectors out of the country. This most recent group of inspectors were not allowed to go to certain places. Any place they wanted to inspect there had to be a 24-hour notice prior to inspection.

Kazakhstan and the Ukraine both had similar resolutions passed against them. Both those countries fully cooperated and allowed the UN to help them eliminate an arsenal of WMD.

And again... THE GASING OF THE IRAQI KURDISH MINORITY IS ENOUGH PROOF THAT SADDAM HAS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Thousands of Kurds murdered. <~~~ THIS IS HOW WE KNOW!!! THE WORLD WAS WITNESS.

forwaken · Addict Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 635 City: Turlock, CA

Thanks Todd, I just wanted to clarify.

Todd Armstrong · Addict Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Posts: 758 City: Battle Ground

Thank you for repecting my opinon and not trying to rape me for having it, like others.

forwaken · Addict Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 635 City: Turlock, CA

I don't think they are raping you, this has been a legitimate debate. This is what it is and it should be taken for what it is worth. Discussion like this provokes thaught and people can choose to learn from it or they can get all pissed off and then it is worth nothing. I don't believe anyone on this thread has gone on an offensive and ranted and raved about something that made no sense. People have been stating opionions and facts in an attempt to get there point across and in turn have been listening to what other have to say as well. It may be heated discussion, but that in turn, creates more dialouge. Just my 2 cents.

ohsix · Posted: Mar 22, 2003 7:46 pm Post subject:

this is one of the more mature debates i have seen on this site. good job on keeping it clean guys.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

I like debating a topic. Makes you look more carefully at what you are trying to defend. It can also help you better define the issue at hand and narrow it down to something more specific than Bush Sucks War is Bad or War is Good Kill Saddam.

Todd Armstrong · Addict Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Posts: 758 City: Battle Ground

I agree , alot of people I talk to are simple minded, so we were talking and their only opinon was, "either you support war or you leave the country"

I can't stand people who only have the ability to state their opinon, and not listen to someone else's

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

There aren't many issues in this world that are that simple. I can see we all have different backgrounds and viewpoints. Each is valid and equally important in society. Believe it or not conflict fuels progress.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Funny thing is I was writing a paper all day on Presidential Powers during wartime. I've got 10 pages and will hopefully finish another 10 tomorrow.

Todd Armstrong · Addict Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Posts: 758 City: Battle Ground

Good luck on the paper

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20030324/ts_nm/iraq_chemical_weapons_dc_3

That might be enough proof for me to support a war if it turns out to be true. I still think a better method should've been used to disarm Iraq in a more peaceful, or at least a more supported manner, but at least this justifies a war to me.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

John- 12 years of attempted disarmerment. They tried all neccessary means. They tried diplomatic approaches. They tried to work it out peacefully for 12 years. Why is this not making any sense to you???

That article is just the tip of the iceberg. The military will find more...

James K. · Posted: Mar 25, 2003 10:30 pm Post subject:

todd you are probably one of the people that thinks that this war is just about oil or something, we know that these people have weapons of mass destruction (fact) and we have done everything possible to rid them of these weapons (fact) people say that we jumped into this war, that is bull crap we have been trying to disarm saddam for the past twelve years from desert storm on. i think that that is plenty of time. show me more than ten peacful protests that have occurd, every single one that i have seen the police have had to break these things up becuase of violence. for the people that are against war and are so narrow minded lets go see what the future would be like without this war.

'we allow iraq to do what ever the heak it wants and we do nothing about it, except bug them to death about getting rid of them, they will still hate americans and jews, they allways have. Once they got enough of these weapons to feel suitable for war they would bomb the people that they do not like, (Saddam blows up his own people he is just as psycho as hitler or stalin) in fact he looks up to stalin as a role model. They would bomb us and isreal and once isreal reacts then the palastinians will began to bomb isearel becuase you know that they hate them, then the U.S. would decide to send military resistance in there and now iraq has four times as many weapons as they did before and more solders would die and also more civilians would die, and more than two major sides would be fighting,(you would have isreal and palastine fighting and north korea would be bombing us all while we try to stop iraq and saddam from taking over america) and the U.S does not have the ability i.e man power to control more than one war at a time, then we would have a draft and of course no one would want to go because everyone is against world war three and everyone will be talking about the end of the world and stuff.

ok, ok, ok, maybe that was a bit dramatic, but seriously if you have a better plan for the united states then let us know because some of the smartest people (bush, powel, rumsfeld, myers) have no other choice or are in your eyes not supposed to be there because some moron is still talking about how Gore should still be president. how ignorant could you possibly be, suck up your pride and ego and trust what the united states is doing. or you can go live under saddam for awhile and then we will see how much you really do appreciate the united states. not many people do appreciate where they live, but they will soon hopefully, i bet anyone in iraq who is for the war would trade places with you in one second.

"JUST MY OPINION"

oh and by the way i am PRO GOD, because he is the only reason any of us are here, and in him all things are possible.

criminally_minded · Posted: Mar 26, 2003 10:10 pm Post subject:

Good debate.

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

James K has invented something new, the sent-igraph. Holy crap man, use some periods! Shocked

I was unaware that Iraq had four times as many weapons as they used to. Where are you getting this information from???

Nor-Cal - I just feel that Iraq wasn't an immediate threat to anyone. We could've spent at least a few more months working with other countries on forming an agreement on what to do with Iraq and Saddam. War should always be a final attempt at peace after ALL diplomatic attempts have failed. I personally didn’t see adequate attempts by Bush and his administration to solve the issue in a peaceful manner. War was not a last resort for our country, as weapons inspectors hadn’t even completed their inspections. I’m sick at the thought that countries that were our allies now distrust us and question us. Do you really think that we had no way to gain their support for a war?

All we are doing is breeding more hatred towards our country. It’s kind of ironic that by stopping one person who is a “threat” to our country, we are created a bunch of new potential threats.

Wes – When the US picks a leader for Iraq, it will most definitely not be democracy. In Afghanistan, we installed a puppet leader in Hamid Karzai. In Iraq, "democracy" will be satisfactory to the Bush administration so long as a democratic election produces a equally pliant leader. I’ve actually heard that our government has mentioned replacing Saddam with another tyrant.

To me this is a war of choice.

Todd Armstrong · Addict Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Posts: 758 City: Battle Ground

James K you should not state what you have been told, but facts. All I have to say the major factors of this war are not what you think of " liberate Iraqi" and "disarming Saddam" if you think those are the major reasons I hope you and your TV are happy together.