Does it matter....

Leggester · Posted: Apr 16, 2003 5:00 am Post subject:

Honestly CB, the piece of the puzzle you are missing is that THIS WAS NOT ABOUT OIL!

We've tried to steer you away from that argument many times, and apparently have failed miserably.

Now, quit watching CNN, they are in bed with Terrorist countries, they have had all credibility destroyed in teh past two weeks.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

If oil has NOTHING to do with it, then why are we there? I don't mean just Iraq, why this interest in the middle east at all? There are other areas of the globe where there are worse dictators that Saddam. Why did we have troops in Lebanon? Why play both sides against each other in the Iran/Iraq war?

Do we want to assure stability for Europe and Japan?

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

So leg, instead of berating me, answer the question: Why are we there? It's our presence that is the source of all this hate. Why do we have an interest there?

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

PS- I'm actualy asking to get info, not lead you to some hidden point.

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

Those other countries do not have the capabilities to threaten us, or don't pose a risk now or in the immediate future. It is conceiveable that Iraq could have/develop weapons that could pose a threat. Additionally, Iraq helped terrorists. Look at the guy that they just arrested in Baghdad. Saddam has also done things indicating that he is not the peaceful type. If Iraq was more powerful, most agree Saddam would have attacked more.

Nick
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Toyota vd engine history

Leggester · Posted: Apr 16, 2003 5:45 am Post subject:

OK, we'll start over. Remember the word sanctions?

Remember we were sick and tired of Iraq flouting those same sanctions?

We went to the U.N. to see if anything could be done by the farce of a confederation?

When the U.N. failed, we went in.

BTW, the name is actually Legge.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Ok, I think you guys are right. But ask this: Why do they threaten us? Because they don't like us. Why not? Because we are THERE. So we are back in a circle to square one. If we weren't involved there, they would have no reason to threaten us. But we are involved. Why? YOu guys say it's because they threaten us. But they threaten us because they resent our presence there. Why are we there? Because they are a threat to us. why? Because they don't like us because we are over there. Why are we over there? Because they are a threat to us. Why are they a threat to us? Because they don't like us because we are there.

See what I mean? It's a circle. But why were we ever there in the first place?

And what about Korea? Does this mean that we have to go afer them? They have a nuclear weapons project in full swing, dont' they? Should we go after Korea?

Leggester · Posted: Apr 16, 2003 6:04 am Post subject:

BAGHDAD, Iraq — U.S. forces came upon a recently abandoned terrorist training camp on the outskirts of Baghdad where recruits were apparently taught how to make bombs and what to do if they got captured, the Marines said Wednesday. ( from FOXNEES.COM this morning )

No, I do not see what you mean. Are you trying to be extremely dense or just trying to keep a debate going?

Only one more time. N. Korea has ASKED us to come back to the bargaining table.

Syria, as stated before, harbors terrorists. They will be put under sanctions. If that doesn't work, perhaps we'll have to go in there in another twelve years.

It seems you've ignored all prior discussion on this and keep repeating yourself. I do not know if this is on purpose or not.

I don't really care why they don't like us, it's a topic that's already been explored. e.g. they are threatened with having to come to terms with the modern world. Women are actually people, not chattel. Caste systems are no longer a good thing. Feudalism is not OK anymore. on and on ad nasuaem.

Nathan Newman · Addict Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Posts: 711 City: Baylor

it all dates back to the Israeli-Palestinian struggle. The west implements the jewish nation of Isreal, taking the land from the Palestinians. Both Isreal and Palestine held claims to the land, but the west gave it to Isreal. Isreal and Palestine fought continually, the west, (mainly America) continued to help Isreal. Ever since, palestinian nations have hated Americans. That is one reason why they hate us.
Saddam really hates us even more because when the UN tried to get him to comply to the regulations set forth by the Geneva Convention, he refused. The UN is weak and essesentially didn't do anything. When no one else would step up to responsibility, the USA had to take charge.
Now, why are we taking all of this responsibility? I don't know. I guess the other countries, with the exception of those on list 1 Wink

, are too weak to stand up to their responsibility to the world. It is the job of the stronger nations, to rise up in brotherhood and help the weaker nations of the world to reach their full potential. And, at times, it is the job of those leading nations to whip backsliders like Saddam back into line. If we don't all come together in love and kindness, we will never have peace.
I am a Repubican, and I vote for George Bush.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

Another thing is when Iraq invaded Kuwait, Kuwait wanted our help. They also wanted us to protect them. That's part of why we're there. The people we protect with the no fly zone also want us there. Otherwise, Saddam would kill them. Saudi Arabia wanted us there when Kuwait was invaded because they were scared too. They also wanted continued protection. That Mecca place is there and it angers the crazies (Osama) that western people are around Mecca. So, we're kind of stuck, we could have ignored Saudi Arabia and Kuwait's government and the majority of their people wanting us to help. Letting Saddam take them. In this case the crazies would be happy, but other bad things are happening. Our interest is people usually don't stop taking countries once they start (Nazi Germany). So, if we just satisfied the crazies and let Saddam take Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, he'd mass up more troops and take Iran, Eqypt, and probably Israel as soon as he could. That would be harder though, Israel is pretty bad ass. Also, their is the oil thing, but that is more of a trade issue. They need us buying their oil probably more than we need it. That's why we allowed food for oil with Iraq during the "ban," supposedly all oil exported was traded for humanitarian type stuff. You can't eat oil, what are you going to do with tons and tons of oil? Make a huge slip and slide? Design a car that gets 1 mile per gallon or less? Heat your house even more in the desert? Hid under the surface and scare your friends....

Nick
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Thinkmill

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

They threaten us in the same way that any fanatic run government threatens us. When a country will pay the families of human bombs then there is a problem. When the Dictator gases thousands within his own border there are problems. When Iraqi defectors who were educated in the USA talk about developing WMD for a regime there are problems. Should I go on?

Leggester · Posted: Apr 16, 2003 7:47 am Post subject:

Well,I respect your opinion CB, but I don't think that's the real reason 'they' hate us. I've stated why I think so. Also, that region has never been at peace in recorded history ( around 8,000+ years ).

I do not believe 'they' all hate us either. We're on good terms with most of the Emirates and Jordan.

Shoot man, they've hated us since before the turn of the century. That's a long time before Isreal.

Remember when Roosevelt ( Teddy ) went in and basically destroyed the Barbary Pirates ( no, it's not just a name, they really did exist ) by taking over Monacao IIRC? They had U.S. hostages and we marched marines right up to the palace, killed all the guards and took our people back.

Again, long before Isreal.

I work with Jordanians, Chinese, French, English, South Africans and a few others. 'They' don't all hate us. Those in power may hate us because we represent a threat to their strangle hold on their subjects. That's not my problem, it's theirs.

Leggester · Posted: Apr 16, 2003 8:22 am Post subject:

Thinking more about it, perhaps "they" hate us from the Gihad/Crusades times.

There are long tribal memories there as evidenced by the Palestinian/Isreali disagreement. Do you know how this came about? The Bible states both parties have valid claims for that area to be their homeland. That's from 4K years ago.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Ok, I respect your opinion too, Leggester. If I'm hearing you correctly, you think that "they" hate us over there because we have feedoms they don't have, and we have a more modern culture regarding women and porn and all of the other stuff that makes America great. I agree with this, as a base.

Otto, I agree with you as well. But here's my view in a nutshell: There are a lot of problems in that region, and some of them have roots in European and American involvement there. Like Kuwait. I know they wanted our help. But look at the shape of Iraq and Kuwait. After WWII, when Europe divided up the middle east, we didn't pay enough attention to the cultural boundaries that existed there beforehand. So you have a lot of artificial borders, created in part by the victors of WWII. But when those cultures grew up, they didn't like the way those lines were drawn.

Europe allows the formation of Israel, pissing off Arabs everywhere, who generally rally behind Palestine, but not so much in the open because they have oil to sell.

This causes problems. Further compounded by our involvement from then on out. (Isreal, Iran, the Iraq/Iran war, etc.) Our culture is very threatening because it rocks, and the fanatics feel that their culture is endangered. Which it is.

So along comes Saddam. Angry at the US, possibly developing WMDs, just being generally nasty and not happy with Iran and the US. (he doesn't like the boundaries as set up after WWII.) He goes to war with Iran after they boot the Shah, and the US, out. Iran fights back. We see this as an opportunity to keep everything equal, and keep everyone week. So we play the two sides off each other. This causes more resentment.

Osama comes along, and he's got the same gripes, plus a religious belief that no foreigners should be on Arab soil. He starts making trouble. Saddam doesn't like him because ( I can't remember, but they don't get along). Osama also hates Israel.

Saddam invades Kuwait. Osama offers to help Kuwait. Kuwait refuses, opting instead for a surer bet of American help. This pisses everyone off.
US kicks Iraqi but out of Kuwait. UN resolutions happen

9/11 happens, after a bunch of other terrorist attacks off American soil. We get real mad and can't understand why they hate us. We figure it must be just because we are a free nation.

Iraq, while not caught openly violating anything that Hans Blix would consider significant, still seems shady. We invade, and oust Saddam. The Iraqi people seem happy, but already the Shiite population is beginning to chant "no Saddam, No US".

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Sorry so long.

So here it is:

I think we might have been right to invade Iraq, given the situation in the Middle East. But the US, at least in part, added fuel to the fire by becomming involved many years ago.

So perhaps the war was just, but we are partly responsible for the issues that made the war necessary. Dig?

All I'm saying is that our policy in the middle east has lead to a lot of hate and resentment. Is it worth it? I don't know, because I don't know what the world would be like if we had a different policy. But my point is that things are not as black and white as:
"the US is great, benevolent, and free and never did anything to tick people off. They just hate us because we are free."

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Hey guys, I just came across something pretty cool. Try this site: http://www.netalive.org/topics/9217 It seems to shed some light on the roots, post WWI, on why that region has so many boundary problems.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Seriously, read this. It sheds A LOT of light on the things I was asking about. Let me know what you think. It's pretty interesting.

Leggester · Posted: Apr 16, 2003 9:31 am Post subject:

Uh, it left out about 80% of the full story, but OK.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

I don't know what's missing, as I've just started reading everything I can find on this, from both sides. What seems to be clear, though, is that the issue is like an onion: every layer has an underlying layer, and the US is not entirely without blame (though it's hard to say. We supported the corrupt and violent dictatorship of the Shah of Iran- Bad. But what if we haden't? Would things have been worse?).

The only conclusion I can definitively come to at this point is that the issue is so complicated and deep, it could take years just to fully grasp it.

But let me tell you, I just spent the last 4 hours reading up on this, and it is pretty obvious, once you get into it, that it is not a black-and-white issue.

Leggester · Posted: Apr 16, 2003 12:00 pm Post subject:

If we hadn't, then USSR or China probably would have. It was a cold war until the 80s going on over there.

The Arabs were friendly to ALL sides and loved the money and aide they got. They were quite willing pawns in the chess game. They were making money hand over foot. Certainly didn't hate us all that much back then.

Swass · Guest

"So we are back in a circle to square one." Strangers should not let strangers mix metaphors.

jason_ssr · Posted: Apr 16, 2003 12:41 pm Post subject:

I think you guys are clouding things with history overkill. Yes history is important and plays an important roll when discussing current affairs. But in order to see the reasoning behind liberating Iraq you only need about 2 years of history.

1. USA is attacked! By who? Silent assasin.
2. Bin Ladin named. He hates the US. Why? WHo cares why, he attacked us.
3. OK we are not as inpenitrable as we thought. Arab world rejoices.
4. Ok, looks like we arent liked very much.
5. Who could these assasins team up with to hurt us more?
6. Iraq seems to have training facilities for Al Qaeda terrorists.
7. Intelligence seems to think they have WMD.
8. How can we check and see? Lets use the UN resoltions from 91 to go check.
9. Iraq acts shady about the whole deal. They dont like the US.
10. Intel sees them moving equipment to avoid inspection.
11. We dont want those kind of weapons being put in the hands of those who have already shown they will attack us.
12. Iraq still defiant to the rest of the world.

We have no choice but to disarm them and remove the shady power.

Its not about oil. Its not about religon, or boundries. Its about power and pride. its about that region not liking western culture or ideas. However, more of the world is embracing it because it is successful. They dont like their women seeing how women are treated in other countries. They dont like the idea of people being in charge of their own destiny. They like the old customs of male dominance and your bloodline determining your fate. Our ideas of free thought and the right to chose threaten their way of life. Our way sees their high society men as just men who earn their respect like everyone else. they dont like having to earn the loyalty of others. They like people to be brainwashed into serving them. Well our culture poisons theirs. When women and peasants speak out, then what?

they dont want to find out....

Sean_Brinston · Posted: Apr 16, 2003 12:48 pm Post subject:

Eventually the will find wmd. I herd that they are saying Iraq shipped the weapons to Syria. Dont know if its true or not . What ever happened to those chemical weapons they found that we herd about last week? The ones that were loaded in the launchers . I believe they were ricin and Mustard gas. Anyone know what happned about that? What about all these chemical suits they have found and the torcher places. I believe that eventually they will find a big weapons Cache. I also dont belive that the U.S would plant stuff over there. If they were going to they would of done it awhile ago.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Fundamental Religious Differences...

The early Christian church was always seperate from the State. This changed slightly after the conversion of Constantine. Still Christian ideals were not connected with the State. Mohhomad (sp?) unlike Jesus was able to conquer land and create an empire that lasted centuries. The prophet is the head of the state. The Ottoman (sp?) Empire was one of the most powerful. It also fell to the western European powers after having controlled all of Spain and even advandced on Switzerland. A christian martyr is someone who dies suffering for their faith. A muslim martyr (shi'ide) dies in battle.
However despite the differences these religions share the old testament in common and in the early years they would address and debate the conflict without violence. Both religions see themselves as holding the final truth. Believe in what we know and you will go to heaven. Non believers burn in hell. This lead to the conquest by both sides and ultimatly the seperation you see today.
Neither side is clean and possibly with the more moderate Sunni faction in power the middle east and west can open that dialog again.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Also... Al-Queda doesn't recognize the US outspending the USSR as the cause for the fall of the Soviet Union. Al-Queda thinks that the resistance in Afganistan cost the Soviets dearly and eventually led to the collapse.

Leggester · Posted: Apr 16, 2003 1:55 pm Post subject:

One possible misunderstanding here Norcal.

Mohammed wasn't born until about 571 A.D.. They believe Jesus was another prophet, like Moses.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

My fault... I was reading some notes from class and got confused... Muhammad gained control of Mecca 630 AD, first revelation in 610 AD, and died about 632 AD.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

I do think it is important to understand why we aren't liked. NOTHING can justify what was done to us, but would you agree that it is important to understand why the enemy dislikes you, so that you have a better chance of building a lasting peace after the war?
I don't think they have establishe an Al-Queda-Iraq link yet. It's a little premature to say so. (not saying there ISN'T one)

I agree with Nor*Cal, that moderate Sunni rule may be very helpful in maintaining a peace. But there is speculation already that the Shiite (sp) population is beginning to plot a takeover, and there are already anti-US sentiments being put into the Shiite populations minds.

Fanatics who think that they are right and everyone else should just be dismissed. What are you going to do when that kind of mentality is so prevalent?

Leggester · Posted: Apr 17, 2003 5:01 am Post subject:

Nope. Don't care anymore. We've tried and tried, but you won't do the proper research. Your getting pretty single threaded now.

Let's just face it. We're hated because we're the U.S. OK? Happy now?

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Ok leggester. I've done a lot of research lately, and I've come to some preliminary conclusions, but I won't waste your time outlining them here.

It seems you believe that We're just hated because "We're the US," and there aren't really any important underlying reasons, or things we can do, besides conquer, to make it better. If this is your position, I really can't debate you any longer. We'll just have to agree that we are starting from two radically different viewpoints, and I don't think there's anyting I can say to cause you to see anything new or different. So I won't debate you any longer on this thread.

See ya in the next thread!

This is from The Onion, a satirical fictional e-newspaper, leaning to the left. But I thought it was funny anyway:

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

PS- I do think we will eventually find some WMDs.

Syrial is now sucking up in a big way, sayingn it will cooperate with UN inspectors, and that it wants to rid the region of WMDs and such. But this may be just a ploy to buy time or to make the US look bad if/when we invade them.

Leggester · Posted: Apr 17, 2003 5:49 am Post subject:

CB, it's just that you seem to looking for the easy answer. There isn't one.

The piece you quoted the other day didn't even take the world politics of the time into consideration.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Dude, the whole point of my posting on this entire thread has been to point out that there is no easy answer. Apparently, I'm not doing a good enough job of communicating on here.

I know there isn't an easy answer. I don't even know if there is a complete solution. I'm glad we "won" (as if there was a doubt), and I truly hope we examine all the underlying causes of this war, and start to work on a policy that will benefit everyone, without leading to more resentment of the US.

Now usually someone posts something like "Yea, our policy should be to just go in and destroy anyone who doesn't like us! Crush anyone who hates the US, because they hate freedom! The cause of this war was Saddam threatened us, and because of 9/11 and WMDs."

That makes me feel like conflict in the middle east is then destined to be repeated.

Here's a metaphor: It's like you get caught hitting on your buddy's girl. He threatens to kill you, and he has a gun. So you knock him down and take the gun and kick his teeth in. Justified? Absolutely. But you have to ask yourself why did he want to kill you in the first place, so it doesn't happen again.

Nobody seems to want to analyze why such resentment of the US exists in the middle east, and what can we do to improve things. This is why other nations think we are somewhat arrogant.

It's like WWII. Hitler: Bad. Very Bad. No question, bad. But after we beat Germany, we examined the treaties that ended WWI, and made sure not to repeat mistakes that caused more resentment of the Allies by the Germans, which made Germany fertile ground for Hitlers rhetoric. Dig?

I'm out. On to new ground. this time I mean it.

Leggester · Posted: Apr 17, 2003 8:10 am Post subject:

Folks have analyzed it. That's why we're on the current course we are now.

These are professional world political analysts.

Amateurs like us will never have the full info the professionals do. We are tyros compared to them and always will be. Perhaps in 20-30 years, when all analysis documents have been declassified we can get a better picture.