Saddam has 48 hours to leave Iraq or military conflict.

Jeremy Coe · Soul Rider Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 408 City: Auckland

ask norcal, he said it

RKG · Criminal Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 94 City: Nashville

Calling Trade Sanctions blackmail huh? Not really. Why should the US support other countries when they do not reciprocate. Do you know how many years and how many dollars we import versus export. When someone needs something, they love the US. When the US wants some reciprocation, BAD US!!! The French I find the most appaling in this. If not for the US, the would be speaking German now, along with most of the rest of Europe. I would personally love to see the US to stay out of international affiars, good and bad. Perhaps then the world would see the impact the US has, both Good and bad. Yes, the US has done stupid stuff abroad, but yet they have done far more to foster good in the world. Lets think about contribution the US has made for the world over the last century or so.

As for the other countries not wanting war, let's think about who they are. Do they have dealings with Iraq? From what I have read, they have agreements and a war would interfer with those. These countries could care less about the Iraqi people. Read some articles about Iraqi defectors who wanted to speak at an antiwar protest, but they actually want to speak in support of the war (these were women and children that escaped and had witnessed the torture and abuse). The protesters of course did not want to hear from the actual people from there with this view point, so they refused to let them speak.

Now that I have written my book Laughing

, I do not favor war. But at some point (ie 12 years) you have to inforce the sanctions set. Otherwise,you end right back where we were in 1991, this guy invading other countries and being more powerful in the process. He kicked inspectors out, anyone remember why he let them back in? Oh yeah, the US threatened war. This war will cost the US a lot of money that could be better used at home, but the govt is trying to do what other will not, which is to hold a dictator accountable to his surrender agreement. Saddam has ignored the sanctions, lok at the missles he has built. It may seem minor, but it is just an example that he will do what he wants.

ckligor · Soul Rider Joined: 18 Feb 2003 Posts: 454 City: A-town

I guess what I don't understand is why some people are so stupid. They think that their voice makes a difference.. Stop with the bleeding heart crap and support our brothers, sisters, friends, and fellow country men. Most of all support our country.. We need to take care of threats before they become a reality.. People don't understand that Freedom is not FREE.. Don't people like living in the USA? You think we where just handed it? When people attack the US (like 9-11) do people think the US should just stand by and do nothing? What kind of message does that send to every one else? Attack the US and they won't do anything about it.. This needs to happen before they are able to help terrorist assemble a force to be reckoned with. This war is about Homeland Defense, it not about the US being arrogant.. How long should Iraq be able to systematically avoid and put off things that they have agreed to do. I'm not pointing this at any one I just hate that people love to live in this country and are so ignorant that they don't truly understand the magnitude of where things are and just start shouting make love not war. Wake up.. We are doing what needs to be done to ensure our way of life isn't disrupted. Thank you for letting me vent.. Please support out Troops!

impulse · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 807 City: Snyder,TX

Do I think the US is in the right to make trade sanctions? Your dang right i do. When people such as the French dont choose to support the US then yes they are making a descision. With all descisions they have consequences.

You watch after the US destroys Iraq and it is time to rebuild, watch how many countries will want to get involved in that. Why because it is big bucks. They dont want any expense of the war but they will want to cash in on it.

We have to stand up for something or get punked out. Many countries have made that there past time.
How many French does it take to defend there country?
They dont know either.
USA all the way.

Jeremy Coe · Soul Rider Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 408 City: Auckland

As I said in my post, I agree that the time has come to make a stand, and fair enough if the US and British governments believe war is the only way, then so be it.

But if governments of countries where they vast majority of the population opposes the war listen to those people who elected them to govern and thus decide not to go to war, those countries should NOT be penalised for that. That is called DEMOCRACY, which is one of the things I thought Bush and the US in general were fighting hardest for... Exclamation

Cruel World · Criminal Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 55 City: Waterford, MI

I'm with Nick, where is the list of sanctions in response to the Iraqi conflict?

I don't know of any, and I have been trying to stay on top of things. I don't think the US is punishing any country for their position on this. I don't think the US has sanctioned Canada at all, maybe this is being confused with the tighter immigration and border crossing rules that were placed after 9/11?

I could be wrong, someone point out some information on this.

Also, anti-war demonstrators may want to read this. I found it pretty interesting.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81314,00.html

Jeremy Coe · Soul Rider Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 408 City: Auckland

I guess I should have researched...I was going on NorCals statements that sanctions had been imposed....

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

Jeremy,

I agree with you about your statements about a democracy, if the majority of people in a country don't want to go to war they shouldn't. Along those same lines, if the majority of people in a country don't want to trade with another country, they shouldn't have to either.

Nick
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Motorcycle tires

RKG · Criminal Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 94 City: Nashville

So the US should bear the costs of the war and keep sharing freely with those who do not? And then when it's time to rebuild and build businesses, everyone will be willing to help there. Sanctions may be harsh and uncalled for, but I would think twice about calling non supporting countries allies. When the time came for a tough decision, right or wrong, they did the worst thing by making no decision. Other countries pretend that if you ignore this, it will go away. If we keep inspecting, Saddam will be good. NO!!!! As soon as the threat of war goeas away, he will amass weapons for what ever reason he has. DOES ANYONE REMEMBER LESS THAN 2 YEARS AGO???? He booted inspectors...Now he has repented??? PLEASE..... America ignored this issue to when it happened, but now that terrorist decided to attack our homeland, it is no different than an invasion. If the government has data to show Saddam has supported these terrorist, then he must go too.

King of the Tigers · Posted: Mar 18, 2003 11:43 am Post subject:

I belive our leaders often have to make choices we may not agree with but because they can see and better understand the problems they have the elected right to make their choices. Sometimes these choices will be right and sometimes they'll be wrong and sometimes a wierd combination of the two. The US has allies who as members of the United Nations and NATO signed agreements to make sure Saddam disarmed. Now they won't support their own agreements so why shouldn't the US make it easier for supporting countries to trade and more difficult for the non-supporters, the people who have backed down for political or economical reasons.
What gets me is that the situation is hidden under bullcrap of OIL, MONEY, etc..... People in Iraq are living in fear, people in Iraq have requested help, people in Iraq are being killed, people in Iraq have had chemical weapons used against them by the same guy who's still in power. I find it disgusting that so many of you Aussies and plenty of Americans too think you shouldn't have to help stop a murderer like Saddam. If someone you didn't know was getting beat up on the street next to you and called for help would you let them get beat up? or die? That we helped Saddam before and didn't get rid of him earlier is not an excuse to not take action.
I say bravo to John Howard!, who can see a menace and take action despite the fact that the majority of you Aussies hate him for doing so, and will likely see to it that he isn't re-elected.
Bravo to Tony Blair and other world leaders who are making a statement that the end of the opressive dictators, the end that should have come after WWII, is coming to an end!

Jeremy Coe · Soul Rider Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 408 City: Auckland

ok...so if the reason you are invading is to help the iraqi people...what about North Korea? that is NOT the underlying reason gimme a break.

As said 3 times now, Im not against this war, but things do need to be put in perspective a little bit more

Jeremy Coe · Soul Rider Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 408 City: Auckland

King of the Tigers · Posted: Mar 18, 2003 12:11 pm Post subject:

Jeremy, I'm not pretending like anyone besides myself wants to invade Iraq for humanitarian reasons, but that is going to get accomplished. I think that there are other good reasons as well to invade. Also Bush has sited both Rwanda and Bosnia as places in which the UN and world failed. I think Bush and other world leaders know that there are lots of reasons and one of them is helping an oppressed people.

RKG · Criminal Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 94 City: Nashville

Jeremy,
Is North Korea under sanctions already? How long have they been in violation versus Saddam? Have North Koreans used biological weapons on civilians? Murdered, raped , tortured any citizens? There is a world of difference between Korea and Iraq.

And by our system, Bush did win. The electoral college voted him in.Gore may have had more individuals in highly populated areas, Bush had more of the country. What does it tell you when Gore's own state did not support him?

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

Yeah, that's true, I don't really want to sanction those countries either and like I said I don't think any countries have been sanctioned. I was just making a point, the only thing that I can think of is that when Iraq is liberated I don't think the countries that didn't help liberate Iraq should get the benefits of the countries that do. We'll see how much support all those countries have for Iraq's people when $$ is needed to rebuild it.

Nick
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Girlfriends pics

*chris* · Addict Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 982

people have made some good points in this topic. id like to think that most countries can figure out y the US is going to war. like some people said, no one wants to go to war, but theyll sure as hell want a part in reshaping iraq when were done.

and to be honest, i like france. its a beautiful country that has some stuff youll never see in america. but yes i agree, they can be such pu$$ies when it comes to decisive action. and yes i agree that if we hadnt entered WW1 and WW2....theyd be speaking german right now. and some people say the US is arrogant, that may seem so, but look at how much $hit weve done for this planet. with the current state of the world, if the US could withdraw completely from everything. have no foreign relations whatesoever.....what do u honestly think would happen??? think everything would be all happy and care-free?? i sincerely doubt it

B-rad · Posted: Mar 18, 2003 1:28 pm Post subject:

I think that most f us can agree that we do not know all of the facts. You may think that you know most of them but you do not. The people that know the facts are making those decisions. In that respect do not call some one stupid for his/her actions. You can disagree all you want, but the advisers to the leaders are a hell of a lot smarter than you. I fully support the war, I also think you have th right to voice your opinion, that is why I joined the Army when I was 18. So the next time you say some one is stupid or retarded for what he says, ask your self what school you graduated with honors from, where you got your masters and PHD and then how many years you have been involved directly in int'nl affairs.

Cruel World · Criminal Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 55 City: Waterford, MI

I have to say though, most of this debate has been more intelligent than what I usually see on the web. This from "a bunch of damn immature unintelligent" wakeboarders. Makes me proud to participate in this sport.

At least we can all agree on this: "I'd rather be wakeboarding than thinking about war!".

Very Happy

jt09 · Ladies Man Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin

There's a bullseye on your back when you are the biggest, baddest MF on the block. If you want to bitch about the US and it's politics and tactics, take a second and think about where YOU would be if the US were run by say....Kim Jong-Il of North Korea, Saddam Hussein, Fidel Castro, any number of African dictators who massacre their own countrymen. If you think for a second that you would be posting on an wakeboarding Internet site, think again. You'd have no wakeboard boat and no Internet. You'd be sh*t out of luck like every poor sap who was unfortunate enough to be born in those countries, because America would have inveded Australia and eaten your cows there.

You are complaining about the country who has kept World Peace for about 100 years now. Australia has always been a US and British ally. Allies stick together in tough times - I still find it amazing that Spain has been so supportive in light of the massive anti US/UN/Euro sentiments there for the last 10 years or so - and I appreciate the involvement of the Aussies. I was discussing this very topic with an Aussie on the way up a ski lift last week and he said, "The world does owe the US a lot." We spoke for a while and he wasn't for the war, or the US in particular, but he recognized the debt the world does owe us.

Be happy we are a peaceful country who takes care of others. I am not particularly thrilled with who we help all the time, but we aren't threatening other countries without provocation or killing our own people. Be happy someone is willing to step up and take care of the bad guys out there. Be happy you will be on the winning side. Be happy you are free to complain about our leaders and politics.

You are complaining about the country who has kept World Peace for about 100 years now. Australia has always been a US and British ally. Allies stick together in tough times - I still find it amazing that Spain has been so supportive in light of the massive anti US/UN/Euro sentiments there for the last 10 years or so. I was discussing this very topic with an Aussie on the way up a ski lift last week and he said, "The world does owe the US a lot." We spoke for a while and he wasn't for the war, or the US in particular, but he recognized the debt the world does owe us.

I didn't choose to be an American, I was incredibly lucky to be born one.

B-rad · Posted: Mar 18, 2003 1:52 pm Post subject:

HOOAH! I can feel the spirt in Jt's post, and I agree with it. I think the last line was the best though. I didn't choose to be an American, I was incredibly lucky to be born one. and on that note, I would not want to live anywhere else.

impulse · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 807 City: Snyder,TX

couldnt agree more guys. I just saw where France said that it would help out if chemicals were used.

I agree that this is a good post for the amount of thought used. I just pray it is quick and with the least amount of casualties as possible.

Proud to be American.

Jeremy Coe · Soul Rider Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 408 City: Auckland

jt09, well said.

B-rad, well said.

Cruel World, agreed.

RKG, I agree with what you said about North Korea. Their attitudes to their own people are somewhat different than Iraq's. Perhaps Zimbabwe is a better example? There, Robert Mugabe has persistently tortured members of his own country, while the world stands around and watches...is it perhaps because of his lack of nuclear weapons and oilfields? Quite possibly, but should that make a difference if USA is attacking Iraq for humanitarian reasons?

There is NO question that the US has played a major role in the strive for world peace. There is no doubt that this world would be a totally different place had it not been for their constant commitment to dearmament and cooperation with peacekeeping missions and talks. You should be proud to be an american. (As long as you're not a redneck)JOKE. I know I am proud to be a New Zealander (even though our defence systems are non existent), and I know that when times are tough, NZ would call on the states for assistance, and for this we are unbelievably grateful, albeit unspoken gratitude at times. Wherever possible New Zealand and Australia (eg Gallipoli in WWI) have given the ultimate sacrifice in terms of human life in support of their major allies (GBR, USA). Whether people say it ten times a day or not, everyone knows who's on your side. This doesn't change on a day to day basis. France may be doing itself a disservice by opposing the war on Iraq, but if that is the general consensus in that country, so be it.

I dont think that infighting between Allied nations gives a very sound indication of our united front to those people that we are potentially fighting. But, that is the way it goes sometimes. Governments are like people, they all have opinions and a$$holes. I guarantee you, that if America was attacked, the French, the Russians, the Germans would ALL be there in your support. Maybe USA wouldnt need their help,but I guarantee you would get it. Sanctioning nations who wont partake in the attack (COULD YOU SUBSTANTIATE THIS NORCAL?) is in my opinion a very petty thing to do. Each instance of desired warfare must be looked at on a case by case basis, and those countries opposed to war haven't become so just on principle or just to spite the USA...they too have their good reasons.

I do hope that ALL allied countries, be it those participating in the war or those not, contribute either financially or otherwise to the rebuilding of Iraq if this war materialises. I can see this rebuilding being a MAJOR job.To all those participating in the war, Good Luck.

I DO hope that this war does not invoke considerable civilian casualties, as I believe that would be a tragic consequence of a war supposedly based to some extent on giving the Iraqi people a better standard of living in every way.

I am now going to bed after letting this thread consume most of my day Smile

These forums are the best.

Finally, to quote Jerry Springer,
Take care of yourself, aaaaaaaand each other. Colorful

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

I apologize for the epic post in advance...

The USA uses trade as a bargaining chip in most aspects of international politics. That's what politics are about. It's about getting what is best for your country. The USA feels that Iraq poses a threat to international interest and has decided to act.

Jeremy- There is no world Democracy. The UN has no authority if the members choose not to obey. Any body of government has an obligation to its members and the contract that binds them together. The UN is a weak organization that cannot act on it's own treaties. Due to this inability to act, Iraq has been able to violate a treaty for years. The USA is not going to allow the UN to drags its feet anymore. If the democracy is ineffective then it needs to be refreshed with a revolution. This conflict in the UN foreshadows a power shift that will occur.

I read the Canada trade sanction things in a friend’s independent news magazine. I will try to track down the source. The basic idea of the article was that the USA and Canadian softwood lumber dispute continues and the rift between allies widens due to the Iraqi conflict. It went on to say the USA had left negotiations due to recent developments and other allies would also feel the impact of not backing a long time trade partner like the USA.

My statement about cattle was inquisitive. I honestly did not know that the USA imports beef. If you drive through the States you will constantly run into massive cattle farms. There are massive cattle ranches in the interior of California. Sorry, that statement was misconstrued. I didn't mean it as an attack.

As for American arrogance... Read Tocqueville and his perception of the American way of life. It might give you an understanding of the American background and a better perspective on our worldview. As a Frenchman observing the United States and its people he was able to capture the basis of our life, philosophy, and characteristics.

I don't feel like arguing about the misconceptions of Americans but I will say that our extreme individualism gives us a different worldview that is misunderstood and often written off as arrogance.

"They (Americans) owe nothing to any man, they expect nothing from any man: they acquire the habit of always considering themselves as standing alone, and they are apt to imagine that their whole destiny is in their own hands." -Alexis De Tocqueville

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

ckligor, so because someone disagrees with war they are stupid?? If you don't think that speaking out makes a difference, then why did you even bother writing a long post that contained plenty of complaining?? To me that's stupid!

As Stated · Criminal Joined: 04 Mar 2003 Posts: 89

Iraq needs to be bombed so bad that when they go to republish maps that they dont even bother putting it on there. Just let it rip and destroy the hell out of them! And for France, I cant even explain how I feel with them.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Jeremy- http://congress.org/congressorg/issues/bills/?billnum=S.CON.RES.4&congress=107

That is the bill that is the issue. The article said that it was being dropped due to the issue at hand. There is currently a 27% tariff on Canadian softwoods and the bill was an attempt to resolve that issue and make it easier for Canadian imports. The USA was trying to resolve some NATO and WTO trade issues but this lack of support has shifted they government’s willingness to help the non-supportive countries.

As you can see no action has been taken on that bill other than referral to committee. If the President lobbies the committee they can easily hold the bill hostage or kill it in the committee.

Sorry the first post was ambiguous about these facts. I saw that article and was a little pissed about the lack of support from our northern neighbor.

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

SupraBoarder · Posted: Mar 18, 2003 5:03 pm Post subject:

The single greatest aspect of life in America is that we have the freedom to hate everything about it.

BillJ · Posted: Mar 18, 2003 10:55 pm Post subject:

It seems to me that most people that are against the war and suggest giving the inspectors more time forget that 1441 was passed because the world was convinced that Iraq was in material breech of previous UN resolutions. The ONLY reason that inspectors were back in Iraq was the build up of American troops in the Gulf. Those are facts.

Iraq agreed to disarm and allow inspections as a condition of the cease fire at the end of the Gulf War. After a short period they kicked out the inspectors and never gave a full account of their WMD which they not only have but have used. The world as allowed them to continue to ignore the UN resolutions for more than 10 years. How long should the US and the world wait?

I hear protesters saying that they don't want innocent Iraqis killed. Well what about the estimated 80,000 Iraqi soldiers killed during the Gulf War? They were innocent in my book since I doubt they really wanted to be out in the middle of the desert fighting a war they couldn't possibly win. And they didn't have to die - Saddam could have withdrawn from Kuwait and avoided the war.

For those of you that are 20 or younger, you may want to go and read about the Gulf War to understand how we got to the current situation. And while you're at it you might want to read about the 10 year Iran-Iraq war that reportedly claimed over 1 MILLION lives. That's the kind of threat that Saddam poses to neighboring countries and to the world.

I'll step down from my soapbox now.

Lakebu · Outlaw Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 158 City: NorCalif.

There was a time when the UN stood up for freedom...Now is not that time.

Josh R · Posted: Mar 19, 2003 3:17 am Post subject:

It's pretty easy to find flaws in that little theory, but I'll leave it to someone else.
Frankly I can't be bothered debating it anymore...

MadDog · Soul Rider Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 465 City: Upstate NY

I don't know if we have impossed trade sanctions, but I do know that I am going to give up my favoite drink (grey goose) 'cause the french have totally pissed me off with ther attitude. No more grey goos for me, so sad Sad

B-rad · Posted: Mar 19, 2003 9:58 am Post subject:

Good representation of the FACTS BillJ, I think most of the people are putting the facts aside and letting the media dictate what they feel the issue is for war. If you look at the black and white facts of the cease fire, war should be happening.

Jeremy Coe · Soul Rider Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 408 City: Auckland

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

Another thing to think about is that the U.S. could have pretty much 0 casualties if we were willing to lose a lot of Iraqi civilians. Basically any U.S. casualty died to save the lives of the Iraqi civilians.

That makes you wonder how many Iraqi civilians are worth saving for the life of one U.S. military person?

Nick
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OXYCONTIN REHAB DICUSSION