Opinions on Tige's

Shawn Madison · Posted: Mar 11, 2003 8:45 am Post subject:

cameraboy, Supra Launch has the nicest wake out of the ones you listed!

Mullet Man · Outlaw Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 132 City: SoCal

You know there should really be the Big 4 because Skiers Choice is almost making more boats per year than CC is. They also build their boats with torsion box stringers.

J-Dub · Soul Rider Joined: 26 Feb 2003 Posts: 321 City: Atlanta

You'll probably trade it in 3-5 years anyhow. Just get what you want.

nick360 · Criminal Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 85 City: Phoenix

That's an interesting diagram Mullet Man. I'm curious as to your expertise on company's construction, though. Have you been to the factory's of SN, Mal, MC, Tige, Skier's Choice, etc, etc? Are the "big three's" stringer all made identical, same shape, same amount of glass / resin, hand-laid, chop, 2 of them, 4 of them, integrated floor liner, engine mount systems, hence identical strength? If so, then why buy a SN, when a Moomba is built identical?

Or is this just a blanket smack on Tige'? They use a wood core, so they are crap compared to anyone who uses foam or air?

Surely, you didn't gain all of this expertise as a Tilt-A-Whirl Operator?

And I won't call you Surely, again! Smile

J-Dub · Soul Rider Joined: 26 Feb 2003 Posts: 321 City: Atlanta

nick360, I thought the same thing but I didn't want to get into it. Some people are just geniuses but when it's all said and done, I doubt a wood vs. foam/air stringer system will sway cameraboy's decision from/to buying a Tigé. I bet that cameraboy decides on one boat or another because of......where the cooler is or......how high the sundeck is to the swim platform

cameraboy, about the distance between the deck and platform. You might want to look at that on the Tigés. I've found it to be a little aggrevating.

Mullet Man · Outlaw Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 132 City: SoCal

Tige is not the only boat builder using wood stringers. There are many other companies like Sanger and Supreme that save money by using wood for stringers. It was not intended just to talk smack about Tige, but to help those who are carry the misguided view that wood is superior for stringer construction. Do people really think that foam is used as a structural part of the design in torsion box stringers?

No the big 3 or 4 do not have identical stringers, but they are all based off of the principal of a torsion box system. A system which is proven to be much stronger than the antiquated wood stringer systems which have been used since the beginning of time. No I have not been to all the factories, but have worked on CC, MC, Moomba, Bu and Tiges to see the difference. First hand knowledge is much better than believing whatever BS the manufacturer tells you or a factory tour. Have you ever seen the floor of a Tige ripped up to reveal what is under it? I have.

You would be amazed what you can learn while traveling with the carnival...

porter · Outlaw Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 109 City: Sammamish

Do yourself a favor and don't choose your boat based on the stringers. If you choose Tige' all you need to know is that you are covered by the strongest hull warranty in the industry if anything goes wrong. Demo a Supra and a Tige' on the same day and the decision will be clear - either way, you will get a great boat.

Mullet Man · Outlaw Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 132 City: SoCal

Porter, It is the strongest if you leave out all of thier exclusions. You should go back and read what Goldmember wrote on the first page of this post. I looked into what he said and he is right, they have pretty much eliminated any warranty at all.

porter · Outlaw Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 109 City: Sammamish

Mullet Man....oh, I read that. It doesn't apply to most people as long as you don't run a ski school. Since I own the boat I also have a copy of the warranty.

Mullet Man · Outlaw Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 132 City: SoCal

I am glad that you feal confident about it. I am a little leary of things like that. I would be afraid that, legally, an owner would not have a leg to stand on if they did need ot make a claim. So many companies leave the back door open these days. I would really like to see someone be able to use this warranty. Not that I hope a boat falls apart, that would suck for the owner. But I would like to see the process actually happen.

renster · Newbie Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 31 City: Asheboro

Mullett Man,

The "plywood" in the stringers is XL Plywood - there has NEVER been a case of rot involving the XL Plywood. The treating process used in XL panel results in the chemicals becoming chemically altered within the wood becoming insoluable. The XL treated wood robs the organisms of the plywood panel as a food source. (Go to www.greenwoodproducts.com for more information.)

It seems that at some point you would understand that WOOD IS A NON ISSUE. Also, the wood stringer shown above for the tige' is much thicker than you illustrate.

nick360 · Criminal Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 85 City: Phoenix

Mullet Man,

Can you explain how the SN, MC, Mal, Supra & Moomba stringer systems are a "torsion box system" and the Sanger, Supreme and Tige' stringer systems are not?

I may be missing the difference (I'm admittedly not an engineer), but I'm curious as to what the difference is.

Mullet Man · Outlaw Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 132 City: SoCal

Renster, I do not remember even bringing up the dry rot issue. I was talking about the strength of the stringer system and for the matter the weight. Lets say that Tige uses 2 sheets of 3/4", add fiberglass for a total 2" thick. That does not compare to the 5-6 inches and usually more used by the bigger builders. If you really think the Tige stringer is much thicker than I illustrate then I can tell you have never seen a true stringer in one of thier boats.

It seems that at some point you would understand that "ROT" IS A NON ISSUE, however WOOD IS WEAK...

Nick360, The difference of the two can be seen in my diagram. The torsion box stringer does not need the floor for structural integrity. It is a proven design in engineering and is notorious for strength and rigidity and torsional stiffness (resistance to twisting). A simple description would be a large hollow fiberglass tube that is sandwhiched under the floor of the boat. It does not rely on the inner material nor the floor for strenghth. A standard wood stringer is much like a flat panel running up and down under the floor of the boat. It gets its strength from the attachment from the hull to the floor. The best example I can think of is airplane wings. When planes were starting out the wings were nothing more than flat sheets. For strength they had to be attached to the plane with struts and wires for support, much the way the wood stringer needs the floor for support. Now wings are built with a torsion box running length wise inside the wing. They are free standing because the torsion box handles the load and does not need outside support. Sorry for the long answer.

nick360 · Criminal Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 85 City: Phoenix

Mullet Man,

OK, so you say that the foam/air cored stringers are torsion box system because they don't require the hull and floor for their strength, but I don't see how your diagram shows that. Where does the concept come from that they don't require the hull and floor for strength and the XL wood cored stringers do? What is it exactly that makes the foam/air cored systems a torsion design and not the XL wood cored systems? Is it the way they are built, the shape, the way they are fitted into the hull, what makes them different?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but:
Tige', MC and SN stringer systems are all built with basically the same process, the only difference being the coring material and their shape. All three companies lay a pre-formed stringer core into the hull, be it wood or foam, they then aply the fiberglass over the top of the coring material to form the actual stringer itself. Then MC uses plexus to bond a seperate floor component over the stringers, while SN and Tige's floor is fiberglassed directly to the stringers.

Malibu builds their hull and stringer in seperate molds, then bonds the 2 along w/ the foam cored floor together w/ plexus.

What is it about the foam/air cored stringers that they don't require the the hull and floor for strength and the wood cored stringers do?

Mullet Man · Outlaw Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 132 City: SoCal

If you remove the floor then basically the stringer would look like an upside down T. It is not very stiff torsionally and not the strongest design. If you remove the floor on the others you are still left wiht a box style stringer. The shape is torsionally very stiff and longitudinally stronger. It is like comparing a steel strap to a steel tube. Which one will be more flexible? The strap. Which one will twist more? The strap. Even if you add a top and bottom layer creating an I-beam shape, it is still not as torsionally stiff as a tubular or box style design. Also remember that Plexus is a stronger bonding agent than fiberglass itself.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Ships of wood build men of iron.

We only ride here from May until October at the latest. Then the boat will be stored indoors. Is wood going to really be that bad under those conditions? How strong does a stringer system really have to be for recreational use? I'm not planning on conquering the high seas with this boat, you know.

porter · Outlaw Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 109 City: Sammamish

The wood will not rot, the hull is as strong or stronger than any other boat. If you like the Tige' best, buy it and you won't be dissappointed. I've owned two Tige's, MB Sports, and Mastercraft. I can't say enough about Tige'.

nick360 · Criminal Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 85 City: Phoenix

Mullet Man:

It's not a comparison of a steel tube to a steel strap, it's the comparison of two 8" steel tubes to a grid of six 4" steel tubes, filled w/ a coring material to provide additional strength.

My point is they are both box shaped stringers. The XL wood cored stringer, when removed from the hull and floor, would be a box shaped stringer as well, the only difference being the width of the fiberglass stringer itself. Now, even though it's a more narrow stringer, you have 3 times the number of stringers in a Tige' (6) than you do a Mal, MC or SN (2) *Except, I believe, for the MC Maristar 230, which has 4 stingers*.

So which is better, 2 wider box shape stringers running length-wise, or 4 more narrow box shaped stringers running length-wise w/ 2 additional box shaped stringers running width-wise?

In addition, you said yourself that the foam is not used as coring material, so you essentially have the fiberglass working independently. Even though the box shaped stringers used in Tige' are more narrow, they DO use the XL wood as a coring material.

In my opinion, 6 fiberglass box-shaped stringers using an XL wood core is a stonger construction process than 2 fiberglass box-shaped stringers using no core.

cameraboy:
As far as stregth of stringers, no other company can touch the structural warranty of Tige'. It wouldn't matter if you ran your boat Jan. 1st to Dec. 31st and stored it in your driveway, the Tige' is stronger than you can use it.

I'm not trying to persuade you to buy a Tige', buy what works best for you. The trick is to do all of your homework, don't just listen to all of our opinions, because a majority of the time, that's all they are.

Mullet Man · Outlaw Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 132 City: SoCal

Nick, I hate to tell you but the stringer cross section of a Tige is not a 4" wide box. If you think it is then you are kidding yourself. The Tige stringer is not a torsion box design but a couple sheets of plywood, at best, coverd in fiberglass often referred to as a sandwhich construction. A box gets it rigidity from the 4 outer walls, not the core. It is basically a grid of plywood. They do use XL for coring because the stringer design does not hold up structurally like a torsion box system and they HAVE to use it. Have you noticed that, in the boating world, wood is not something that is bragged about anymore, I wonder why? Maybe because the companies that are driving the industry, not just tournament boat builders, are moving on to new and better technology. If the wood grid stringer system is so great how come the airplane manufacturers moved away from it years ago and are now building torsion box wings?

I never said not to buy a Tige. I, again, am just pointing out that contrary to what some believe, the heavier, older wood stringer systems are not comperable to the latest technlogy. I am sure that whichever type of boat Cameraboy buys he will have a good time in. I would even be happy if all I had to pull me was an old bayliner, but I would understand that there isa better way of doing things. I am sure that one day Torsion boxes will be bested, and who knwos, maybe Tige will be the company to do that.

lee · Outlaw Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 196 City: USA

Airplane wings are not made of wood because of the weight of the wood. Most people do not try to get their boats airborne but make them heavier for a bigger wake, seems like wood would help that issue. Your comparisons of stringers and floor systems has not made any sense to me yet. The samples you have provided are all built the same way hull + stringer + floor, you have just twisted the words around. What do you mean by Torsion Boxes? When I look Torsion up in the dictionary here is what I find, " The act of turning or twisting, or the state of being twisted; the twisting or wrenching of a body by the exertion of a lateral force tending to turn one end or part of it about a longitudinal axis, while the other is held fast or turned in the opposite direction." So, that is a better way to build a boat?
Have you, do you read "Professional Boat Builder", if you did you would notice that there are still off-shore racing boats and yachts using wood in their construction process.

Mullet Man · Outlaw Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 132 City: SoCal

I understand that stringer construction is a very confusing thing. I can see where the whole conversation would not make sense if you do not understand what a torsion box is. I would recomend doing some research on torsion box design. There is a lot of information on the web. As far as wood stringers being the norm. Why is there a huge move away from the use of wood right? The top rated builders, such as Cobalt, Crownline, Correct Craft, Fountain, and many many more all have or are in the process of stepping up to all fiberglass construction. It is true that most smaller builders or custom builders use wood because making torsion box stringers is very expensive and high tech process. How come almost all of the boats used in the world cup (as is Americas yatch) are all composite?

As far as weight. It is easy to make a boat heavier. Any manufacturer could do it, add weight that is. I prefer lighter and stronger. The difference is when you have to put a marketing twist on your boats excesive weight so that it is not so much of a negative. If you are like me you enjoy driving your boat and the way it performs, not jsu triding behind it.

lee · Outlaw Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 196 City: USA

I understand what a torsion box is, a torsion box consists of a core grid with a skin on both sides, just like all of the above boats are made hull + stringer system + floor. I just do not see a difference in your diagram trying to explain construction methods. I guess Tige uses torsion box construction then because their stringer system is the only one with a grid system, not just longitudinal stringers but also latitudinal stringers called Quadrabeam construction. You also state that it is more expensive to build boats the other way, leave XL lumber out and use two longitudinal stringers instead of four with none of the latitudinal stringers, how is that.

jim Bogden · Outlaw Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 178 City: Sandy, UT

mullet, i will drag race against you, poker run, daytona 500 whatever you want.......there is no lost performance

renster · Newbie Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 31 City: Asheboro

Mullett Man,

The extra weight generated by the wood core stringer system on the tige' produces a ride that is smoother, quieter and gives a more solid "feel" than other boats. I've driven all of the other boats - and I'm not saying that the other boats aren't well built - but you can feel a difference "at the wheel". The "huge move" you speak about towards all fiberglass construction, particularly in the larger boats, and ESPECIALLY in the Americas Cup boats is all about lightness and efficiency, while wakeboarders spend lots of time and money trying to make their boats heavier so they can maximize the wakes.

A wakeboard boat isn't built for traveling long distances, cruising all day or going fast (all where weight savings are very important). They are purpose built to survive hard starts and stops all day, make large wakes (where weight is an asset) and stay together doing it. I have a 2002 20V and it throws a great wake with the TAPS system alone. My boat is about 700lbs heavier than most other 20 ft wakeboard boats - I consider it an asset, not a liability. Go drive one of the new tige's, you'll feel the difference!

I don't think I'll ever understand your "beef" with tige' - you've been raggin' on them for months. Tige is a well made boat - as are almost all inboard boats compared to their I/O brethren. I have a lot of money tied up in my boat and I get tired of people running them down. What's up with that? As Rodney said "Can't we all just get along????"

Solo · Criminal Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 99 City: Seattle, WA

Porters new rig:

Mullet Man · Outlaw Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 132 City: SoCal

Lee, They do not need the latitudinal stringers because the torsion box system, which does not exist in a Tige, handles the torques and twist of the boat. That is why the design is superior. A true torsion box gets its strength from the outside material and shape, not a core such as wood. "Quadrabeam" is Tige' s fancy new marketing word for a grid style stringer system which has been used since before Tige existed.

Jim you are kidding yourself. How can you be the heaviest boat on the market, by far, and experience no performance loss? They even use the same engines as everyone else, nothing special.

Renster, Do you know how much strain is put on the hull of a Americas Cup boat? More than any tournament boat would ever undergo. Strength and durability are two of the greatest strengths of a torsion box designed stringer. My beef is not with Tige, it is with those who blow smoke in the eyes of unknowing people looking for advice. The big 3 are not their because they are stupid. They market the latest and best technology instead of hyping up second best construction methods.

Listening to you guys is like reading a Tige brochure. A bunch of marketing BS versus proven engineering principals.

I know that the truck I drive, though nice, has some design charactersistics that are dated. There are trucks made with better updated technology. I can handle that and do not have to defend the company because of blind loyalty. It is hard talking to people that can not except reality.

I heard there is this great way of building boats for wakeboarding. They call it "WoodraPlank Hull Tanknology". They take wood planks and glue and ...

Mullet Man · Outlaw Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 132 City: SoCal

Sorry about tthat last bag. It just entered my mind and go tme laughing so I figured I would share it. I am sure I made some real fans with that one!

brentgd86 · Outlaw Joined: 20 Jan 2003 Posts: 115 City: San Marcos

you people with your name brand boats. Why so obsessed with those three??? mastercraft and malibu are ok but not by any means my first choice. correct craft on the other hand if you want to pay 55k for a small boat then go ahead. As for my opinion on the tige 21v i have one right now. DO NOT BUY IT!!!!!! save your money the only tige i would EVER buy is an '03 22v. my experience with tige before their new convexv hull is a very disappointing one. the wake is so unclean it is not fun to ride. you can clean it up a little bit but you have to ride a really short rope and you can't add much ballast. My advice is to save your money and look for either a used boat that you know you will like or go for the new tige if you are set on tige.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

When did Tige' start using the convex hull? Does the 2002 20V have the convex hull?

nick360 · Criminal Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 85 City: Phoenix

Mullet Man,
You said that a box gets it's strenght from the 4 outer walls, not the core. I am assuming you are referring to a Torsion Box Stringer. What company builds a 4 sided stringer?

I don't believe Fountain has gone away from wood coring, Formula did, but I don't think Fountain did. A Cobalt dealer told me that they are starting to build wood back into their boats, because the newer ones w/ wood free construction don't ride as well. And Chaparral, another high-end I/O pushes wood construction very hard.

How much ballast do you personally put in your Malibu?

As far as loss of performance, lets compare the Mal Waksetter VLX to the Tige' 22v from the '03 WaterSki Magazine Boat Test 0-30 MPH times. The Tige' is 9" longer, 9" wider and 820 lbs heavier. The VLX did 0-30 is 5.0 seconds and the 22v did 0-30 in 6.0 seconds. A 1 second difference. I agree that Malibus are faster out of the hole and drive more nimble, but is that worth the trade off for larger wakes and better rough water ride?

One final question...is new technology necessarily better technology? I seem to remember an old saying "They don't build them like they use to!"

porter · Outlaw Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 109 City: Sammamish

Cameraboy. Here are the new Tige' hulls that have awesome clean wakes:

Best: '03 24V, '03 22V, '03 22i (after January '03), '02-'03 21i, '02-'03 20V

Better than previous models: '01-'03 (before January '03) 22i. They filled in the spray pockets, but did not have what they are now calling the Convex-V hull.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

OK, so to clarify: the 2002 20V does not have the convex-V hull? Dealer went down to 36,500 plus the cost of the cover (444$) for a 2002 20V with 5 hours on it.

I don't think I will bite at that price. Not including the cover just pissed me off. Jackasses. I don't think that the inboard boat market in Rochester NY in 2003 is going to be all that rockin'.

nick360 · Criminal Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 85 City: Phoenix

The 2002 20v does have the convex-v hull. It was the first boat that received it, followed by the 21i in mid-2002. For 2003 they have put it under almost every model.

porter · Outlaw Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 109 City: Sammamish

Let's clarify one thing. The Convex V-hull is a marketing term for what they are calling the new hull. The thing you want to look for is whether that hull has spray pockets or not. Spray pockets are like pockets of the hull that are cut out near the back of the boat.

The 2002 20V does NOT have spray pockets and therefore it DOES have the Convex-V hull. It is the exact same hull as the 2003 20V.

Mullet Man · Outlaw Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 132 City: SoCal

Nick, Actually Fountain is building most of their race boats with no wood, limited to race just because of the added costs. My former boss was one of there racers and also a 5 time world champion for deep-vee. You are right about Chapparrel but Crownline did the same thing until they decided to fork over the cash to upgrade to all composite construction. If you look at the design style of any of the big 3 boats you will see that they are torsion boxes. They do not rely on any internal core for strength. I am very interested in seeing if Cobalt does start to use wood again. They sure are pushing the no-wood on their website. As far as teh new technology being better, you got me there, but I do think that torsion box stringers (and technology) have been around long enough to prove that it truly is better. The one thing I will give Tige is that I think they are onto something with the convex hull. The same theory is used to keep the tail of a longboard "sucked down" for noseriding. I am excited to see where that leads.

The Mullet Man salutes you Nick, where others have lowered theirselves to just ripping on me, you have always come back with very intelligent questions and info!