Hydrogen or Electric Hybrid Engines

SupremeWake · Soul Rider Joined: 14 Feb 2003 Posts: 322

With gas prices doing nothing but going up, it looks like the price of gas this summer may have an impact on the amount of riding we actually get to do.

I've been hearing alot about hydrogen cell powered vehicles and was wondering if anyone knows anything about a hydrogen cell in a tow boat?

Its an important consideration for the top 3 in my opinion, but I haven't heard a single word about alternate power sources in boats.

anyone?

moblsv · Outlaw Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 228

this doesn't speak of boats but you might find it interesting, if you haven't already seen it. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.04/hydrogen.

NAW · Posted: Mar 18, 2003 9:37 am Post subject:

I certainly would like to see a boat manufacturer take significant steps in improving fuel economy in their towboats. Wether it be more fuel efficient gasoline engines, or alternative power sources.....somebody needs to step up.

SupremeWake · Soul Rider Joined: 14 Feb 2003 Posts: 322

right on.... A big V8 in a boat is not exactly efficient no matter how you look at it. Although, it is pretty cool. Smile

and I'd cry a little having to replace that v8 rumble with hydrogen silence.....but. You'd think that for the 60k cost of some new inboards....some money could go into development of something more efficient.

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

Internal combustion engines are only about 20-30% efficient. They max efficiency possible for an internal combustion engine is around 70%. I believe current fuel cells are about 80% efficient, which is quite amazing.

Nick
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Ultimate Fighters

salmon_tacos · Posted: Mar 18, 2003 2:21 pm Post subject:

How about a CNG powered boat? Why not? It wouldn't be a difficult conversion for the existing marine engines. It seems to me like it's a better application for CNG than a car because of the tank packaging issues and the smaller network of marine filling stations.

Fuel cells generate electricity. Then you'd need a motor to actually power the boat. That's a BIG shift in technology. I really don't know how feasible it would be at this time. The CNG idea, however, is a no brainer. You'd just have to work out the supply issues.

In case anyone doesn't know, CNG=Compressed Natural Gas

moblsv · Outlaw Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 228

if you want to go that route I'd go propane. It's a liquid so you get more fuel in the same size tank and it's heavier to weight the boat without ballast bags.

salmon_tacos · Posted: Mar 18, 2003 2:57 pm Post subject:

I've read that CNG has a really high octane so you can use really high compression ratios and achieve performance on-par or better than gasoline.

Is that true of LPG as well?

moblsv · Outlaw Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 228

you lose a very small percentage. I actually drove a propane powered truck in college and was very impressed by the performance. The problem was in finding fuel

WakeFlight · Newbie Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 17 City: Washington, DC

You are all dreaming. How else can you get 300+ horsepower power plant, with more ease, convience, price, and safety as a 350-360 cubic inch internal combustion engine? When the automobile was first invented, many different types of engines were tried; electric, gas, internal combustion. They all fell by the wayside except for the IC engine. There is a reason why the IC engine is with us. Someone has to design, manufacture, and sell it and people want to buy it. There is no practacle alternative to the IC engine with the perfomance consumers demand.

SupremeWake · Soul Rider Joined: 14 Feb 2003 Posts: 322

WakeFlight...lol. You've got to be kidding right? "theres no alternative to IC engines?????" Do you think we'll be using gasoline forever? And do you honestly need 300+ Hp to wakeboard? Your attitude seems to be, "why try, nothing else will ever work." Thats crazy. There are other things that work. There just is not the demand for them yet because people are not willing to check them out. Smile

Maybe you'd change your mind if gas costs $5/gallon or if it were announced that gas will only be supplied in limited quantities for private use. We think it will never happen and we don't worry about it, but not only is it a possibility......it is inevitable at some point in time.

NAW · Posted: Mar 18, 2003 4:36 pm Post subject:

I hear what your sayin' Wakeflight, and pretty much agree. But I think there will be a growing trend in vehicles, of all types, to be more fuel efficient. I just hope ski boat mfg's follow suit.

WakeFlight · Newbie Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 17 City: Washington, DC

B4Sunrise:
I'm waiting for you to tell me what the alternative is. You wrote "There are other things that work." Well what is it? Boat manufacturers build 300+ horsepower boats because that is what their customers demand. There is not a demand for alternatives because the technology does not exist now. I never said the technology would not exist in the future, but nothing comes close to the IC engine for performance, ease, convience, price, and safety. When someone invents a better technology and it works, I will buy it. And last time I checked gas does not cost $5 a gallon nor should it. Who exactly is going to "announced that gas will only be supplied in limited quantities for private use"?

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

You could make an 300+ HP using several other engines, it just wouldn't be cheap enough to compete with I.C.

Nick
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[URL=http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_Civic_(seventh_generation)]CIVIC (SEVENTH GENERATION)[/URL]

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Not cheap enough yet. It will come, though.

Gas was rationed during the 70's. It will happen again.

SupremeWake · Soul Rider Joined: 14 Feb 2003 Posts: 322

WakeFlight,

I wasn't saying that those things will happen tomorrow. I was simply stating that you are naive for stating that "we are dreaming" for having a discussion on alternative power sources. The truth is, YOU HAVE NO CONTROL over gas prices and if for some reason it was $5/gal. tomorrow....what would you do? You would have to buy it if you wanted to use your IC engine, as would I.

I don't know if hydrogen, electric or any other source could actually reach 300+Hp yet, but you haven't answered my question yet either. Why do you think you need 300Hp to wakeboard? I do know that both hydrogen and elec. engines can produce significant power...I don't have actual horsepower #'s.

This post was asking for information on any ski boat companies who were trying new things. I wasn't asking for an analysis on my idealism. Do you actually have any info. relating to alternative engines? If not, please let us discuss it here without being told that we are foolish for doing so.

MadDog · Soul Rider Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 465 City: Upstate NY

B4Sunrise, Other sources can produce 300+ HP, I believe cost and size are the limiting factors currently. Locomotives are electric engines (with big diesel generators to produce electricity), and they produce alot more than 300 HP. I think it is inevitable that we will need alterantive energy sources, but it seems that to most it is not a priority yet. Someday it will become a priority, hopefully not too late.

WakeFlight · Newbie Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 17 City: Washington, DC

B4Sunrise:
I did not mean to offend anyone by writing "You are dreaming". If anyone was offended, I apologize. I was trying to make a point. Everything I wrote in my post was factually accurate. I don't even know what your "idealism" is, let alone tried to analyze it. You stated your opinion in your original post and asked others to comment. But now that you bring it up, no I don't NEED 300HP. I don't NEED 200HP. I don't NEED 100HP. I don't even NEED a wakeboard boat. None of us should even have a wakeboard boat, because NONE of us NEED a wakeboard boat.

NAW · Posted: Mar 19, 2003 7:26 am Post subject:

I'm gonna have to chime in.....After getting used to 330 hp, I find it hard to imagine anything less. Personally, I like to run anywhere about 1200lbs water ballast and as many people as I can fit. I don't find it believable to do that, get the boat on plane in a reasonable amount of time and have a big wake all with say 100-200 hp and still experience the same level of boat performance I currently experience.....If I could however, I'd be the first to sign up Laughing

Again, I just hope they can take steps to reduce the amount of fuel consumed by high hp motors... Cool

*chris* · Addict Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 982

whoa now, whoa. dont NEED a wakeboard boat. hahaha...speak 4 yourself. ive spent the last few summers behind an outboard. trust me, u dont want to downsize. it seems fitting that when im trying to get a new boat, gas prices have to go up. Razz

but oh well. and yes i would consider myself in NEED of a wakeboard boat. we cant go behind the lund anymore, and frankly i dont want to. and even so, i dont know about anyone else, but truely, wakeboarding is my only escape. i can barely stand to not board for several months because of winter. so yes, i would say i NEED to wakeboard, therefore i NEED a wakeboard boat.

but on a lighter note, im not making fun of your comments/capitalization, just using the caps to show my support for the boats we all love Smile

and as far as other engines go, if somebody came up with a cost-effective hydrogen/whatever engine that actually worked very good.....i would sign up in a hearbeat. itd be like hey guys...ok just rip that old IC outta there, take the gastank out and replace it with a new tank for ballast, and drop the ole H2 engine in. Smile

SupremeWake · Soul Rider Joined: 14 Feb 2003 Posts: 322

My point was that you do not need 300+ Hp to wakeboard even with excessive weight in the boat. Gearing and prop size/pitch can help alot. The 250 hp that has been around for years and years is more than enough in my opinion. Paying extra for the huge high output engine may be nice, but is it really a valid reason for discounting alternative ideas for engines? That was my point. By all means, I love those ponies as much as anyone and I love working on my engines, but I know that it won't be around forever...I hate how inefficient it is, and I don't limit my thinking to "its just dreaming." And you're right, you don't NEED a wakeboard boat. I know some kids riding behind a bass boat with 75 hp who go inverted or 360 almost everytime they hit the tiny wake. They can ride circles around me and I know it. I didn't mean any disrespect...I guess I just associate the LACK of demand for alternative engines with people who make comments like yours, because you are right...the only reason they aren't in boats is because there is a lack of demand. The technology is (or could be easily) there if the demand called for it.

Let me ask you this....if someone offered you an alternative engine that could only produce 200 Hp in fair exchange for your high output IC, would you trade? I'm just curious how many people would do that.

NAW · Posted: Mar 19, 2003 9:03 am Post subject:

I would trade if performance and the other criteria I talked about above were still present.....the only reason I need a big wake is to compensate for my lack of technique Laughing

, and I'm the first to admit that! Wink

WakeFlight · Newbie Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 17 City: Washington, DC

I think you may have missed my point about the need for a wakeboard boat. Having a wakeboard boat or any boat even a 75HP bass boat is not a neccesity, it is a desire. That being said, some people desire 100HP, some 200HP, some 300HP. Boat manufacturers build boats they think people will buy. I don't see need to replace the IC engine with something people will not want to buy. This is the second time you wrote the technology is (or could be easily) there. I am not trying to be confrontational or disrespectful, I just want to know what the boat manufacturers are supposed to replace their IC engines with that people will want to buy? In order for me to exchange my IC engine for an alternative engine, I need to know a few thigs like: what type of fuel, the cost of the fuel, the availability of the fuel, the amount of emissions the alternative engine produces, the amount of energy needed to produce the fuel in the first place, etc.

BillJ · Posted: Mar 19, 2003 3:48 pm Post subject:

You don't need high horsepower, you need torque. With standard gas engines there is a general corollation between the two. One advantage of electric motors is their high torque - which is why locomotives use them, along with no need for a gear box. Huge mining trucks also use electric motors on each wheel powered by a diesel generator.

I don't see a radical shift happening anytime soon in the marine market, but hybrid engines are already available for cars and offer decent performance and great gas mileage. Fuel cells are several years away (at least) from being a viable alternative due to cost and refueling issues.

How weird would it be to have an electric boat? I wouldn't need so much power for my stereo because it wouldn't have to compete with the engine noise!

SupremeWake · Soul Rider Joined: 14 Feb 2003 Posts: 322

WakeFlight...

I didn't miss your point. You are missing mine. The alternative engines have already been mentioned. I'm not going to discuss the details of each because I don't have time. You seem capable of looking them up. I wish I could go into detail but I have classes to teach. My point is that your DESIRE to have 300+Hp is a silly reason for discounting our discussion as "dreaming."

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

SupremeWake · Soul Rider Joined: 14 Feb 2003 Posts: 322

OttoNP is correct. Tow boats require low-end torque like trucks. Hp doesn't necessarily mean what you think it does. My point is that the torque we need CAN come from other sources. As the consumers supplying the demand, I believe that we have the responsibility to demand it from the manufacturers...and it will come.

WakeFlight · Newbie Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 17 City: Washington, DC

Exactly,

Power is the time rate at which work is done. Torque is a vector quantity of force. It is the amount of force needed to turn something around a point. It is measured in force x distance, i.e. ft lb 's. One needs to apply 1 lb of force at the end of a 1 foot wrench to tighten a bolt to 1 ft lb.

1HP = 550 ft lb / second

SupremeWake · Soul Rider Joined: 14 Feb 2003 Posts: 322

Ahh WakeFlight....something we agree on! Smile

WakeFlight · Newbie Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 17 City: Washington, DC

B4Sunrise: Just for the record, I own an older DD comp ski boat with a 275 HP Indmar. This is the 3rd time you wrote we can get the HP/torque people want to buy from another source. What is this source? Demand is created when a boat manufaturer builds a boat people want to buy. How am I supposed to demand something from a boat manufaturer when I don't know what it is?

salmon_tacos · Posted: Mar 20, 2003 9:33 am Post subject:

If we are talking about alternatives to petroleum here, natural gas, compressed natural gas (CNG) or liquified natural gas (LNG), is a really cool solution since:

1. It's reserves are much more plentiful than oil.
2. It's mostly methane which you can get from decomposing sh*t if you run out of natural reserves.
3. It's easy to convert gasoline engines to use it. You can even buy an aftermarket kit if you really want to.

Other alternative fuels like methanol and ethanol are cool because they are entirely renewable resources but it's harder to produce engines which use them due to their corrosive properties.

Some car companies are really pushing forward with hydrogen-powered engines but the technology is still not commercially viable because of cost and packaging issues.

FYI, Dodge had a concept car in '99 that had a 4.7L CNG-powered V-8 with 325hp. That wasn't exotic technology. It was just a Jeep Grand Cherokee V-8, converted to CNG, and supercharged.

In the end it's all about demand and infrastructure. Maybe if, like some people suggested, gas prices rise to $5/gallon, that will cause enough demand.

Anyway, I'll just wait for that miniature cold fusion technology which, I'm sure, is right around the corner. Cool

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

Right now Fed Ex is using some fuel cell powered vehicles in Japan...

This is how it will start, since delivery companies can have fueling stations at their hubs, next government and college vehicles. Around 2010 we will probably be able to get them with a reformer so we can put regular gas in, a reformer takes the hydrogen out of gas, then eventually we'll put straight hydrogen in. Boat's will get them after cars, maybe 2012-2020.

Nick
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Kitchen Measures

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

Here's an example of one...

It has 124 HP and 172 peak HP. About like a 4.3L V-6

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hy-wire1.htm

This car doesn't have that much HP not because of the limit, but because the car is light.

Also, here is a good chart of what is being developed right now:
http://www.fuelcells.org/fct/carchart.pdf

Note how with many of these the miles per gallon is over 100.

More general fuel cell info
http://www.fuelcells.org

You could convert your boat to run on fuel cells right now, but the cost is around $3000 for 1.34 HP, pretty expensive!! It would cost around a million to make a 300 HP boat.
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Chilean Recipes

SupremeWake · Soul Rider Joined: 14 Feb 2003 Posts: 322

WakeFlight....hello???? There have been several alternative sources mentioned. Have you read only my posts? There has been electric motors mentioned, the post prior to this one and others.

And quite bluntly you are wrong about supply/demand. You say that demand is created by manuf.'s building something and THEN people deciding its a good thing and that it is what people want. that does not fit the definition of demand.

Demand is simply the consumers saying, "we want >>>>" that is demand and that is why manuf's will begin to create new things.

WE have to create the demand for alt. power sources. WE are the money. WE create the demand. This is my purpose for starting this thread. WE have to begin the process by bringing it up when we talk to dealers, by talking about it on forums like this, etc.

WakeFlight · Newbie Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 17 City: Washington, DC

The marketplace will decide.