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My way to build a ballast system

 
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mantaray
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PostPosted: Aug 22, 2005 8:41 am    Post subject: My way to build a ballast system Reply with quote

Not to steal the thunder away from the other thread, but here is my system and it works great.

It uses a 1.5" thru-hull scoop, a manual shut-off valve, three Jabsco ballast puppy pumps, and alot of tubing and wiring.

I like this system for several reasons.

1. Self-priming pumps. No more filling up hoses with water to prime the aerator pumps.
2. Switches. With the flip of a switch(or 3) I can set the boat up for wakeboarding, skiing, or surfing in a matter of minutes.
3. Overflow protection. If the pumps are left on, the sacs will not burst. Once the pressure is high enough, it pushes water out the one-way valves. (This is a very cool feature. You can fill the sacs to their capacity without worries.)
4. Adjustability. I can fine tune the wake by filling/emptying the left, right, and rear sacs independently while a boarder is riding to even out the wake.


Here's the schematic:



Pics:

Switches:


Thru-hull scoop behind Perfect Pass paddle wheel:


Overflow outlet:


Overflow hoses connected to one-way valves:


Thru-hull scoop, manual safety valve, manifold, and pumps:


Fat sac layout:


In addition to the sacs, I have about 250 lbs of lead in the bow.

Comments, criticisms welcome. Just thought I'd share.
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downsideup
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PostPosted: Aug 22, 2005 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks good! Aerators would work fine, though, and save a little bit of money. Of course, then you would need individual valves for each sac. Also, 540 lounges make great seats on the sides, instead of the side sacs. Not criticisms, just suggestions for others to think about..
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sperbet
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PostPosted: Aug 22, 2005 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

very nice. I run a similar setup on my SS. 1.5" thru-hull to three jabscos. Works great.
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Juice75
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PostPosted: Aug 23, 2005 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mantaray, nice setup. Although, I'm a little confused. If you empty out the thru-hull in the bottom, wouldn't the water pressure when you're moving be too much to empty the sacs (tune the wake)?

Also, what flow valves did you use? Spring or switch gate types?

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sperbet
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PostPosted: Aug 23, 2005 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can still empty while moving. the pressure does not keep the pumps from emptying.
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Yooper
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PostPosted: Aug 23, 2005 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice system. It should work flawlessly. It is very similar to the system I built on my first boat. There are a few very specific reasons that I changed a couple of things this time around..... mostly speed, but also reliability. Aerator pumps are designed to move a much larger volume of water much quicker. The ballast puppy is advertised to move 8 gallons of water per minute (480 gallons per hour). While emptying, the restriction caused by 3 bags emptying through the same thru-hull would reduce that further. The aerator pumps I used this time move 1100 gallons per hour. I'll tell ya.. It's nice to get the board on, get the rope hooked up, put on your vest and have the sacs already full. I haven't timed my new sacs, but my old ones (250 pounds each) filled in 3 minutes and 14 seconds. My new ones are roughly double that size, so I would guess 6 minutes or so.
Aside from being slow, my biggest complaint with the Jabsco pumps was that the impeller stuck fairly often. Those pumps draw 15 amps (aerator pumps draw about 3) and probably spike considerably at startup, so if they aren't seeing a good solid power source, the impeller can stick. Sometimes they stick anyway. Also, if I didn't fill while the engine was running, the pumps slowed down too. The sticking wasn't a huge deal, but my pumps were kind of hard to get to when I had to "unstick" them. In the end, my best solution was to lube up the impellers really well with Armor-All, but it didn't last forever.
As for the overflow protection and adjustability, you would still have that with the aerator system.

The biggest disadvantage I see to the aerator system is the valve that opens and closes the thru-hull scoop. It works great but sometimes I forget to open it, turn the pumps on, then 5 minutes later I realize that no water is flowing! Or, forget to close it again after the bags are full. In that instance, the thru-hull scoop forces water into the bags while you are riding. That becomes evident right away, though..... water is shooting out of the overflow.

I'd like to figure out a way to energize the gate valve for 1 second to open it when you hit the "fill" button, then energize it (in reverse), also for only one second, to close it when you return the pump switch to "off" (the middle position) To empty, it wouldn't have to be wired in at all since the gate valve remains closed while emptying. Any electrical experts out there that can tell me how this can be done?

Anyway, not criticizing your system, (many factory systems use flexible impeller pumps) just sharing what I learned based on my experiences.
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Cyclonecj
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PostPosted: Aug 23, 2005 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yooper,
I feel your pain, I have been through about six ballast setups on my boat so far, still haven't achieved perfection:) I haven't seen a factory setup that I really like, other than the Calabria. I have arrived at the same conclusions you have about various pump types, etc. and cannot abide a below-waterline opening in my boat while running, so I've been closing a hand valve after filling. That sucks. Sprinkler valves really suck. A gate valve is next, I just have been too cheap to shell out for one.

It would take some really simple intelligence like a PIC controller to output 12vdc for 1 sec on one wire to open on the positive transition of 12vdc, then output a 1 sec 12vdc pulse on another wire to close on the negative transition of 12vdc. It could be done fairly easily, and on a very small board with 1 IC chip and a power transistor or two to switch 12vdc to the valve. I can design and build a little tiny black box to do it. I want to add exactly that type of valve to my system anyway.

How does the Rival system handle that? I'd assume they just use a momentary switch for the valve.

What happens to the valve if you apply 12vdc for several seconds, does it grind against a stop or click or something?

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Cyclonecj
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PostPosted: Aug 23, 2005 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops, Mantaray, nice looking boat and system you built there!
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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2005 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyclone,
Check your PM.... I am VERY interested in your circuitry idea for the valve.
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Cyclonecj
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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2005 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude, I am working on it as we speak. And more,, automated ballast control panel with level indicators for any ballast. Switching for any pump type.
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nan0
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PostPosted: Aug 25, 2005 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyclonecj wrote:
Dude, I am working on it as we speak. And more,, automated ballast control panel with level indicators for any ballast. Switching for any pump type.


Cyclone - What's your idea for water level measurement? Are you using tank or bag ballasts? I was out looking online for some way to measure the level in my fat sacs, only way I could think of (easily) was water pressure at the overflow. Or possibly a vane type switch that will indicate when water is flowing out of the overflow. Haven't had any luck looking online though...
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mantaray
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PostPosted: Aug 25, 2005 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nan0, You can't really use a pressure switch or vane type switch. The pressure stays pretty much constant in the sacs until they get full. Then it begins to drain out the overflow.

Maybe someone could comment on how the factory ballasts determine the level.

It's easy enough for me to see the level, I just turn around and look at the sac.

Maybe you could mount a float type gage above the sac that gets pushed up when the sac rises. Then you could connect it to a linear potentiometer and a gage. Hmm, now I'm thinking maybe this wouldn't be too hard to do.
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nan0
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PostPosted: Aug 25, 2005 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mantaray,

I was just reading a post online somewhere that mentioned jasco pumps with a pressure switch integrated in it - when the pump sees resistance (pressure) it shuts off automatically. If this is a real product, it would be very easy to fill the sacs. So long as all or most of the air was out of the bags, the pump would just fill until the sacs were pressurized. I guess the question would be what that pressure limit is, and is it greater or less than the bursting pressure of the fat sacs.
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PostPosted: Aug 25, 2005 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do those of you using sacs with an auto ballast setup ever remove the bags? I have a variety of boaters with me that don't always go for the 'hardcore' wakeboarding setup. Sometimes it's nicer to have 8 people onboard without 3 sacs to step around (especially in a 19' runabout!).
A major concern I have is someone hitting a ballast pump switch when there isn't a bag hooked up. Easy way around it is to cap off the inlet hose when not in use, but ideally I'd like a union fitting with a check valve in it. So when they are connected together, the check valve is forced open, allowing flow. When removed, the check valve closes, ensuring no leakage should a pump turn on. Any of you seen anything like this out there?
Or should I just plan on KISS (keep it simple, stupid) and go with a cap over the disconnected line?

EDIT - found an easy solution - hose quick connects. might limit water flow, but there are brass ones available at homedepot for $6 (male and female end) and even have a water shutoff when disconnected.
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Juice75
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PostPosted: Aug 26, 2005 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nan0, If you have a valve on the main inlet, then closing it off would prevent accidentally filling your boat with water.
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PostPosted: Aug 26, 2005 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nan0,
I don't think there is a cheap accurate way to measure flow or the fill level of a sack. At least not with any hardware I can think of or have seen. Toyota tried using a flow switch hooked to an alarm buzzer but it didn't work well. Systems with tanks have float type sensors inside, easy to get an accurate fill level with that type of system.

I have a simple method for guesstimating the fill level of each sack. It would be system and sack dependent, but it would be accurate and repeatable. I intend for it to be tuneable by the end user.

I'm writing low level software for a controller chip which I hope to offer in a package with all switching and level indicators for any ballast system on one 4"x6" panel. Relatively cheap, too. That's the target anyway. For now, I am going to program a small microcontroller to open and close a gate valve based on the state of a fill pump switch.

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GooseR
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PostPosted: Oct 20, 2005 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kind of old thread, buy hey. instead of using the thru hole scoop, what if you you hooked the inlet /outlet up the drain plug? Just aking because i dont trust meself to drill in my boat yet. and this would seem to do the same purpose. But im not sure, does it have to be at a certain spot of the boat? thanks
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wesgardner
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PostPosted: Oct 21, 2005 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey GooseR,

Want a hole in your boat? I've done hundreds....bring 'er on over anytime, just use a bronze thruhull...I bed mine in with 3-M 5200 as I DO NOT want them coming out and if it is REALLY necessary, you CAN get them out....

If you're unfamiliar, 5200 is one tenacious adhesive/sealer designed for this exact purpose...

PM me if you want more encouragment/advice

Oh yeah, back when I worked in the yards I actually put a thru hull in the wrong boat...but that's another story... Mr. Green

Wes

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GooseR
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PostPosted: Oct 21, 2005 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wesgardner wrote:
Hey GooseR,

Want a hole in your boat? I've done hundreds....bring 'er on over anytime, just use a bronze thruhull...I bed mine in with 3-M 5200 as I DO NOT want them coming out and if it is REALLY necessary, you CAN get them out....

If you're unfamiliar, 5200 is one tenacious adhesive/sealer designed for this exact purpose...

PM me if you want more encouragment/advice

Oh yeah, back when I worked in the yards I actually put a thru hull in the wrong boat...but that's another story... Mr. Green

Wes




Thanks Wes. Where is Severna Park? and im guessin that my idea wont work? ony thing is as of right now my parents own the boat although theyve never been on it, so i dont know if theyll fly for it right away, thats why i was thinking using the drain plug.
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PostPosted: Oct 25, 2005 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mantaray, very nice system. Youve done so much with that SN2001. It looks like its paying off! Very Happy
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wesgardner
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PostPosted: Oct 26, 2005 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey GooseR,

Severna Park's just north of Annapolis by about 15 miles...yeah your idea WILL work...BUT will you get enough water thru the drain hole...mine's pretty small...maybe 1"? There have been others who have "T"'ed their engine intake hose which seems to work as well. The drain plug hole just needs to be below the waterline when you're filling.

I've a pretty big motor (454) and will have a 4 pump system that I'm affraid might rob the engine of cooling water so I'm installing an 1 1/2" thru hull/ball valve piped to a 2" manifold for the intake side...I also think this amount of flow will be restricted if I use my drain hole...so like I said, I don't have any problem putting holes in boats...for the smaller ones you can just use a spade/paddle bit, for the larger ones, a hole saw is the ticket!

Did you say what kind of system you're considering - aerator vs. reversable?


Wes

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GooseR
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PostPosted: Oct 26, 2005 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WesGardner,
Yes my drain hole is small. WIll this reduce the water intake significantyl? im not too worried about speed. because of no wake zones to get to the spot. im thinking reversible pump, but my only concern is if its strong enough to pump water back trhough the drain plug? and my drain plug is always below the water, so that shouldnt be a problem, i hope. haha, thanks
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PostPosted: Oct 27, 2005 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey GooseR,

I think the reversibles can get by with 3/4" stuff....and they do have some power to push water back out


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