BS and Blind

[Gbgonzal138]

Im sorry this is a dumb question but it has been on my mind lately, what is the difference in a backside trick and a blind trick.

[Adam Greer]

nothing, just different terms for the same thing

[bluefish86]

A ________ to blind means you finish with a backside 180 if you came from the heelside or a frontside 180 if you came from the toeside and land wrapped with the handle behind your back.

[pooser]

backside is the way you spin blind is how you land. blind is when you land toeside with the handle wrapped behind your back.

[J_DOGG]

Lets ask it this way and see what we get for answers.

If I do a Tantrum to blind but pass the handle what would you guys call that? I didn't land wrapped but I did land blind and did spin Backside.

Just like the TS 3 with no handle pass = a blind (wrapped) landing but as soon as you pass the handle it's a regular TS 3.

I know I'm missing something here, what is it???

[Jim M]

[salmon_tacos]

[Partyb]

JDogg, how can you land blind AND pass the handle? If you do a tantrum to blind and pass the handle, that's not blind anymore, it's just a tantrum with a bs 180. Doesn't blind mean landing wrapped and having to look away from the boat/blind to be in proper body position (leaning away from line/boat)?

[J_DOGG]

Partyb, - That's what I'm asking.

What is the proper trick name at that point?
Tantrum to revert? I know I wouldn't say Tantrum to BS 180 but should I?

What if I do a TS 3 and never pass the handle, landing wrapped? Is that called a TS 3 to blind? Sounds lame.

I don't know for sure that's why I'm asking.

[J_DOGG]

[salmon_tacos]

J_DOGG,

There is no consistency. Almost everything has the "wrong" name. It kinda sucks but what can you do? As long as you don't try to call it a backside nuclear whirly 9 to blind or something, I guess it doesn't matter. I think "close enough" is the rule.

Usually though, when you have a basic invert with some kind of spin in there, it has a special name, like the moby dick on which I based my silly suggestions.

If elected, I vow to push for sweeping reforms in wakeboarding terminology. No longer shall we live in this state of confusion and inconsistent trick names! No longer will our children have nightmares about calling a trick by the wrong name and getting thrown off the dock!

[J_DOGG]

God bless you my child, (dabs forehead with holy water) You'll get my vote!

[loomosity]

This is an interesting conundrum and I have spent nights by the campfire discussing this with other well informed wakeboarders -- what else is there to do on wakeboarding camping trips? -- which still didn't lead to a consensus. I tend to agree with Salmon Tacos that there is a lot of inconsistency in the terminology.

In my opinion, this started back in the day when wakeboarding had a more waterskiing influence. Early trick names were heavily influenced by trick skiing (frontroll, backroll, roll to revert (what the hell is revert), etc.) Then rebels starting naming tricks lots of crazy names, such as big worm, mobius, scarecrow, elephant, etc. Spins were also labeled "directionally" -- as blindside instead of the conventional backside from skating, snowboarding, etc.

That is why people still say blind-3. There was a movement a few years back to label everything frontside + backside (and properly so), but obviously the harm was already done from the years of poorly labeled tricks.

In my opinion, tricks such as tantrum to blind have achieved "name" status such as mobius, elephant, scarecrow, etc. Even though you could call these tricks by what they really are mobius (heelside backroll with a frontside 3), elephant (toeside frontroll with a frontside 180, with a rewind to frontroll), scarecrow (toeside frontroll with a frontside 180), and tantrum to blind (tantrum with a backside 180), these tricks are so wound up with the name that they have become synonymous. Therefore, a tantrum to blind is a name of a trick, not a description, and, in my opinion could be landed in any of the three ways listed in the current WBM -- handle not passed, passing right as you land, or passing in the air.

Referring to something as blind is tricky because you can really land blind by spinning both f/s and b/s -- at the end of a toe frontside 3 (7, 1080, etc) or at the end of a heelside backside 180 (5, 9, etc.). On either one, you are coming into your landing the last 90 degrees "blind", or without the ability to spot your landing as well (as in relation to your direction of travel and the direction of landing -- at an angle to the wake and with your gaze on the shore or away from the boat's path).

So, to me, blind should be stricken from the whole terminology unless it just refers to the above mentioned landings. If you think about it, when you do the above mentioned spins, you are necessarily coming down blind. If you land without passing the handle, to me, you landed wrapped. I have seen some mags and riders refer to it as wrapped, that makes sense to me, and I think it would avoid the confusion of blind landing v. blind spinning direction.

After all this rambling, here's my point...imagine you did a heel backside 180. If you didn't pass the handle, you landed a backside 180 and landed wrapped (or with a wrapped landing). If you passed the handle, you landed a heel backside 180. And, no matter what, you landed blind because you weren't able to spot your landing as well, but you don't have to mention the blind part because it is implied from the heel backside 180 (just like a blind landing is implied from all toe frontside (switch and normal 3's, 7's, 1080's) and heel backside (switch and normal 180's, 5's, 9's, etc.)).

I fear that these discrepancy will always be here. Just like the method v. melan inconsistencies (method backrolls don't exist in my opinion or at least I haven't seen them done), switch v. fakie (I still don't understand McCaffrey's article -- Switch is a State of Mind -- from years back), and half cab (it's only a "half cab" if you do a switch frontside 180, therefore, there can't be a half cab 3).

I also agree that it doesn't really matter as long as everyone in the boat + your wakeboarding friends know what is up. If you said I did a scarecrow or a raley, no one would know what the heck that meant besides a wakeboarder. Even avid wakeboarders can watch a video and not know what a guy just did. Heck, the pro tour announcer gets lots of tricks wrong. So, its all relative.

Anyways, I'm sure you all will have different opinions about this just like I heard at the campfire. I'll be interested to hear what you think. But, that's what these postings are for, right?

[bluefish86]

loomosity, great post. It explains a lot about why terminology is so messed up and inconsistent.

About the method vs melan backrolls, I've seen a true method backroll, and it looked sick.

[kuehn]

Blind handle pass blid wrapped, no difference i was always led to believe. i do the both. a blind basically heel or toe turning the board away from the pull of the boat rather than natural rotation.
i really dont the point in complicating matters. you could say the same with a regular 180 or 360 where you can do them regular or late. just a preference as you still pass the handle on a blind after as blind landing.

[J_DOGG]

loomosity, Right on Bro. I'm glad my group aren’t the only freaks talking about this stuff while we burn a few logs on and off the fire.

I'm old school must be why I call stuff blind and BS.

The debate will rage on!

[DudeManWes]

loomosity, about that switch vs fakie article. think about being on a skateboard and the differences of riding switch and riding fakie. when riding switch you are totally opposite of riding regular with your foot placement on the board. but when riding fakie you are essentially riding regular backwards, because you still have you're foot placement the same as you would regular, just the tail is in front now. now how that carries over to wakeboarding is by the way you think, because you can't move you're feet on a wakeboard. if you're riding fakie you are basically thinking you have your tail in front, and that you are riding with the board backwards. if you're riding switch then it should feel like you are riding regular, so that when you are thinking of doing a trick, you arent gonna say im gonna do a switch 5, you would just think you are doing a 5. hope that makes sense,

and the thing about half cab, yeah theres no such thing as a half cab 3, its just simply a cab(because a cab is a switch 3). so parks double half cab mobe, should actually be called a cab double roll.

[Jim M]

Here is a good case of inconsistencies in terminology- the frontpage of Wakeworld.com has a trick tip on the Whirlybird, where it says..

"tantrum and overhead blind 360 combo"

where blind=backside....wha?

[viperic5]

This is a gread discussion I wish there were more threads like this one... I would like to know more on terminology....
DudeManWes , I've always wondered why they had two different words for riding fakie (that is the proper term to use according to what you wrote right?) ...

[DudeManWes]

viperic, theres two terms for riding backwards not fakie. the two terms are switch and fakie. fakie only means riding in your normal stance rolling the opposite direction. heres a picture that might help understand it better.

[viperic5]

ok... now it makes more sense ... I think I got it now...

so then it is switch when you ride backwards on a wakeboard since your feet can't move sorry I keep on asking, I like using the correct words...

[pooser]

it depends how your feet are set up. if it is the same distance from the nose and tail and the same angle on each foot then youll be riding switch and fakie but if your front foot is angled more than your back or its one in or something you will be riding fakie and noit switch. this is the way it should be not the way it is. in wakeboarding fakie and switch are used synomously(sp? ).

[Elevation]

depends on how you ollie too, at least in skateboarding. Im not sure if you can even do a nollie or fakie ollie in wakeboarding but fakie you do a normal ollie going backwards and switch you do a ollie with your other foot forward