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Oklahoma, you have got to be kidding me.

 
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chavez
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PostPosted: Feb 20, 2015 12:05 pm    Post subject: Oklahoma, you have got to be kidding me. Reply with quote

Seriously? Is this shite really happening?

http://time.com/3713618/ap-u-s-history-curriculum/


Time wrote:
Why States Are Fighting About American History Class

Lily Rothman
@lilyrothman
Feb. 18, 2015

It's a question of American exceptionalism — and what it means

The Oklahoma state legislature passed a bill this week directing its education board to “adopt a certain United States History program” that would be offered to students instead of the Advanced Placement course on the same topic, which legislators have accused of representing the nation in a negative light.

It’s the latest round in an ongoing fight over changes made to the A.P. U.S. History program for this school year — Colorado drew protests over just such a fight this past fall, and, as ThinkProgress reports, similar fights have sprung up in several other states — and a perfect illustration of why the matter is unlikely to be resolved any time soon.

Here’s what the Oklahoma bill says: the new curriculum must include many of the “founding documents” of the nation, as well as those relating to the “foundation or maintenance of the representative form of limited government, the free-market economic system and American exceptionalism”; schools that stick with the A.P. curriculum will lose funding for the program.

The list of particular documents that Oklahoma students must study includes some obvious items — the Mayflower Compact, the Bill of Rights — as well as several unarguably important but perhaps less foundational documents, like Ronald Reagan’s speech on the 40th anniversary of D-Day.

Although the legislators have a variety of issues with the A.P. program, Tulsa World reported that the bill’s author Rep. Dan Fisher said during debate on the legislation that he targeted the U.S. History course because the new curriculum doesn’t give enough weight to American exceptionalism.

But what would it mean for a curriculum to focus on American exceptionalism? The idea seems easy enough to grasp — in 1988, TIME defined it as “the divine dispensation that the nation thought it enjoyed in the world”; in other words, the idea that America is special — but, though it’s nearly as old as the nation to which it refers, its meaning is still up for debate.

For one thing — though versions of the concept go back to the founding of the United States and the Puritan notion of the “city on the hill” — the actual phrase has murky origins. It’s often attributed erroneously to Alexis de Tocqueville, the 19th-century French sociological observer of American mores, who noted the ways in which the new nation differed from its old-world origins. Others have traced the coinage to the unlikely source of Joseph Stalin, who used it to explain why America was slow to take to Communism (which, he naturally thought, was a bad thing), though the myth that he came up with the wording has been debunked with evidence that the word “exceptionalism” was in use at least as early as the Civil War era.

In recent years it’s been getting a lot more play — Google shows growth since around 1950, with a sharp uptick in the last two decades, starting right around when Seymour Martin Lipset wrote the book American Exceptionalism: A Double-Edged Sword — and President Obama, often in response to claims that he doesn’t think his country is special enough, has become one of its most vocal boosters. “[Having a global childhood] has reinforced my belief in American exceptionalism,” he told TIME in 2008. “One of the things that happens when you live overseas is you realize how special America is–our values, our ideals, our Constitution, our rule of law, the idea of equality and opportunity. Those are things that we often take for granted, and it’s only when you get out of the country that you see the majority of the world doesn’t enjoy those same privileges.”

And yet, as pointed out by a 2012 essay by James W. Ceaser in the journal American Political Thought, there are multiple ways to understand the phrase. For one thing, though the word “exceptional” has positive overtones, it can also be a neutral description of difference; he writes that, in terms of sociology, the latter is more common and can be used to discuss the negative qualities of a culture that make it an exception to the norm. (For example: the Communist view that America is exceptional due to its failure to inspire a workers’ movement.) And secondly, he writes, the dominant idea that the nation has a special mission can mean a variety of things, from a religious sense of purpose to a political mission to spread democracy.

During the debate in Oklahoma, a representative of the College Board objected that the claim that the curriculum ignored exceptionalism was “not true.” After all, he pointed out, the framework of the course doesn’t actually dictate which moments or ideas can be used to teach its “thematic learning objectives” (identity; work, exchange and technology; people; politics and power; America in the world; environment and geography; and idea, beliefs and culture).

But whether the accusation is “true” depends, ultimately, on how one views American exceptionalism. Is it a purely academic matter of historical ideology? A matter of mere distinction? Or a matter of being not just different, but also special and better? It’s a tough question, but as the fight over school curricula moves forward, one group of Americans is left uniquely positioned to debate it: high-school students.


So, the OK legislature knows more about how and what to teach kids about American History than an organization of thousands upon thousands of Universities around the country. Got it.

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PostPosted: Feb 20, 2015 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty crazy, huh?
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PostPosted: Feb 20, 2015 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These motherf*ckers are looking at crazy in the rear-view mirror.

The whole notion of American "exceptionalism" is complete garbage. We are people, we are not better than others - they are people too. Am I better than someone who was born/raised in Toronto? Madrid? London? etc... No, the answer is I am not. And I'm pretty damn sure Jesus would agree, a concept that seems to get lost on these evangelical hard right wingers.

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PostPosted: Feb 20, 2015 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed.
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PostPosted: Feb 20, 2015 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm obviously better than you Chavez so I guess I have to agree with you..
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PostPosted: Feb 23, 2015 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

except gingers. we are all better than them. Very Happy Very Happy
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PostPosted: Feb 23, 2015 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL! Waste of time. History class has always been subjective down to a per teacher basis. I'm not sure why anyone thinks legislation will change a teachers worldview, much less a school district, much less a states education system.

A teacher can say the first Americans were traitors, terrorists, and thieves.

....and they would be right.... from a British perspective.

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PostPosted: Feb 24, 2015 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

American Exceptionalism is not about the exceptionalism of you or me. It is about the FACT that the American System is exceptional versus the world. Frankly, I would rather have that taught than the self flagellation success guilt that is spoon fed today.
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PostPosted: Feb 24, 2015 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eeven73, do you really believe that is the line of thinking here? I do not.

This brand of history they want to teach specifically downplays negative events while promoting positive (in some cases, unimportant) events.

What these dimwits are looking to do is mold history lessons in to the context they desire. They do not care for the AP version, which shows all events, good and bad. They want their own version taught, which specifically promotes the idea that America is better than the others. It's perfectly fine if that's the conclusion these kids come to after learning about history (all of it, not just the siht the Okies want them to know). But if they are force-fed the exceptionalism angle without all the facts... that I have an issue with.

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PostPosted: Feb 24, 2015 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't say I am informed enough to evaluate what the motives of the legislators is.

It certainly is a predictable push back to the "America is an Imperialistic, Racist, Sexist, Homophobic, land of cretins" narrative that has grown in popularity.

And I am not advocating "Murica is the bestest" either. I am saying that I believe in my heart of hearts America truly is a land of opportunity unparalleled in the world. That should be taught and celebrated.

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PostPosted: Feb 24, 2015 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eeven73 wrote:
That should be taught and celebrated.


I understand the tendency to want to do that.

I'd just rather teach kids history in an unbiased manner and let them get to this conclusion themselves.

I feel this way on a variety of subjects. To me, this is akin to religion (parents forcing their dogma onto their kids), political preferences, even something as stupid as favorite teams.

I'm trying hard to not impart my preferences onto my kids. I'd rather them see all the options in an unbiased manner as possible, and choose their own path, and we can support that path as parents.

Right now, this amounts to just favorite teams and toys and what-not. Later, it will become harder, but I'm going to make the effort to the best of my ability.

In the end, I feel it will result in a deeper appreciation for what they really believe in.

eeven73 wrote:
It certainly is a predictable push back to the "America is an Imperialistic, Racist, Sexist, Homophobic, land of cretins" narrative that has grown in popularity.

I don't know where that idea has been "growing in popularity". Sounds like an attention-grabbing imaginary talking point from a far-right politician, to be honest. A red herring, if you will.

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PostPosted: Feb 24, 2015 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chavez wrote:


eeven73 wrote:
It certainly is a predictable push back to the "America is an Imperialistic, Racist, Sexist, Homophobic, land of cretins" narrative that has grown in popularity.

I don't know where that idea has been "growing in popularity". Sounds like an attention-grabbing imaginary talking point from a far-right politician, to be honest. A red herring, if you will.


My description was sensationalistic.

I don't think it is a red herring to describe the attitude of the left as "America is guilty and should feel remorse".

Do we agree that the politics of educators in America runs pretty solidy left?

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PostPosted: Feb 24, 2015 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a 'Murica Kool-Aid drinker by any stretch, but it's tough to argue there has not been a shift to downplay American excellence. Hard to imagine JFK giving NASA these directives:

Charles Bolden wrote:
"When I became the NASA administrator -- or before I became the NASA administrator -- he charged me with three things. One was he wanted me to help re-inspire children to want to get into science and math, he wanted me to expand our international relationships, and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering," Bolden said in the interview.


Without reviewing the specific A.P. curriculum the legislators are taking issue with, and specific changes they would like, it is hard to make an educated decision.

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PostPosted: Feb 24, 2015 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eeven73 wrote:
I don't think it is a red herring to describe the attitude of the left as "America is guilty and should feel remorse".

Do we agree that the politics of educators in America runs pretty solidy left?


1) we've unnecessarily stuck our d!cks in a whole lot of mashed potatoes over the years. IOW: we should apologize for some things done in the name of "freedom" or "national security".

2) maybe. I think the red/blue numbers would vary wildly depending on the part of the country you are in, likely mirroring the general politics of the area. You and I are in states where there is little doubt to the overall left bias. However, if you go further local, you would likely find pockets of staunchly right wing educators. I live in an area where I would be shocked to find that even 50% of the local educators claim to be Democrats. Anecdotally, most are solidly Reep.

RampageWake wrote:
Without reviewing the specific A.P. curriculum the legislators are taking issue with, and specific changes they would like, it is hard to make an educated decision.


Have at it: https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/apcourse

Probably start with this one: https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/apcourse/ap-united-states-history

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PostPosted: Feb 24, 2015 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1) we've unnecessarily stuck our d!cks in a whole lot of mashed potatoes over the years. IOW: we should apologize for some things done in the name of "freedom" or "national security".


Yep, our interventionist policies are definitely worth apologizing for and ceasing.

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PostPosted: Feb 24, 2015 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chavez wrote:
eeven73 wrote:
I don't think it is a red herring to describe the attitude of the left as "America is guilty and should feel remorse".

Do we agree that the politics of educators in America runs pretty solidy left?


1) we've unnecessarily stuck our d!cks in a whole lot of mashed potatoes over the years. IOW: we should apologize for some things done in the name of "freedom" or "national security".

2) maybe. I think the red/blue numbers would vary wildly depending on the part of the country you are in, likely mirroring the general politics of the area. You and I are in states where there is little doubt to the overall left bias. However, if you go further local, you would likely find pockets of staunchly right wing educators. I live in an area where I would be shocked to find that even 50% of the local educators claim to be Democrats. Anecdotally, most are solidly Reep.

RampageWake wrote:
Without reviewing the specific A.P. curriculum the legislators are taking issue with, and specific changes they would like, it is hard to make an educated decision.


Have at it: https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/apcourse

Probably start with this one: https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/apcourse/ap-united-states-history


1.) And there is a difference between accountability and self loathing. I am all for accountability, the i hate america crap is willfully ignorant of the facts regarding opportunity, safety, justice, liberty....etc. of the United States vs. The World.

2.) I as well can only speak anecdotally, but frankly would be suspicious of any data that showed my high school educators in the US are split 50/50 red blue.

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PostPosted: Feb 24, 2015 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie Boarder wrote:
Quote:
1) we've unnecessarily stuck our d!cks in a whole lot of mashed potatoes over the years. IOW: we should apologize for some things done in the name of "freedom" or "national security".


Yep, our interventionist policies are definitely worth apologizing for and ceasing.


Well, your getting a whole news broadcast pretty much nightly of what isolationist foreign policy gets the world.

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PostPosted: Feb 25, 2015 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eeven73 wrote:

1.) And there is a difference between accountability and self loathing. I am all for accountability, the i hate america crap is willfully ignorant of the facts regarding opportunity, safety, justice, liberty....etc. of the United States vs. The World.

I agree with that sentiment, but I just haven't experienced the "self-loathing" in the mainstream. Sure, I've seen it in certain bastions of far-left-wing ideology (i.e. Berkeley and parts of SF) but to me it's still very fringe.

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PostPosted: Feb 25, 2015 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eeven73 wrote:
Okie Boarder wrote:
Quote:
1) we've unnecessarily stuck our d!cks in a whole lot of mashed potatoes over the years. IOW: we should apologize for some things done in the name of "freedom" or "national security".


Yep, our interventionist policies are definitely worth apologizing for and ceasing.


Well, your getting a whole news broadcast pretty much nightly of what isolationist foreign policy gets the world.


No, what we're seeing is the equivalent of stirring up 10 hornet's nests, then hiding in a bunker to watch everyone else deal with it. The stirring of the hornet's nests is the problem, not the current pull back.

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PostPosted: Feb 25, 2015 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got my undergrad in history and I love history and especially the history of the U.S. That said, I don't think I'm an expert but here's my 10 cents.

I find it sad that there's such a big rift in how to teach our history because you can so easily combine the two. Has the U.S. screwed up? Yes. Has the U.S. been imperial, homophobic and racist? Yes! But the U.S. is about people saying, "We're not okay with what's happening. We want something better!" From our founding to the present day, there are people that have agitated for change and got it. We are a nation full of heroes because of this.

Example:

Slavery was awful. (Boo U.S.!) It almost destroyed the U.S. Then the people in power (white people) "gave" blacks the right to vote, hold office, etc. (Yay U.S.!) Unfortunately, the popular opinion was still against this in many parts of the country. So the white people passed horrid laws to strip them of their rights (Boo U.S.!) Blacks showed they were patriotic in fighting U.S. wars and tried numerous other routes to gain equality that did not especially succeed (Yay them! Boo U.S.!) Eventually, things were right and the Civil Rights movement produced some awesome results. They fought for the change and they got the change. (Yay them! Yay U.S.!) Are there still race problems today? Absolutely. But there are so many heroes from all of this. There is much to admire, much to be disappointed about but overall so much to learn that can inspire.

We are a nation that has seen great successes and great failures. But people who want change can get it to happen (sometimes for the worse but I would argue mostly for the better.)

Would it have been great if the U.S. had always treated African Americans as equal? Of course. But that's not our history so let's learn our history to inspire ourselves to make things better.

And a final note: U.S. history (and most everything being taught) is much better from a personal perspective. What I mean by that is don't waste time with dates. Don't require rote memorization of certain documents. Instead explain how documents, wars, laws, inventions, affected people and the country. That's when history becomes relevant and interesting.
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PostPosted: Feb 25, 2015 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^(okie) there is no blank slate starting point. Sure it is politically popular to blame the current situation in ME on Bush et al. And they deserve alot of blame, but lets not pretend that was the start of anything. Executing isolationist foriegn policy is undeniably naive.

Its just like the "you didn't build that" narrative. Sure,I didnt lay the bricks but I sure as Bubb Rubb payed taxes to fund it. It didnt happen in a vacuum.

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PostPosted: Feb 25, 2015 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Better to be a bit naive than complete idiots. But, that won't happen and we'll continue to wonder why things are getting worse.
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PostPosted: Mar 07, 2015 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

American piety is disgusting. It seems to be a conservative virtue though.

The funny thing is, American history is pretty bad. VERY bad. Full of terrible acts. But who cares? All of human history is disgusting. Humans generally are pretty terrible to each other.

Why don't we just erase the whole AP World History course and teach Earth pride? Let's just ignore all the awful things humans have done to each other since recorded history.
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