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chavez
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Joined: 22 Sep 2003
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City: Roseville
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 Posted: Aug 28, 2014 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| pyrocasto wrote: | | Okie Boarder wrote: | My point is that if a guy is 20 yards away, he can be at 0 yards about as fast as you can react to it and pick a strategy.
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That's some slow decision making. 
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No kidding. How fast can the average (non-elite-athlete) dude cover SIXTY feet from a stop?? I'm guessing it will be 3-4 seconds or so. That is enough time to react and pick a strategy, especially if you are professionally trained in how to deal with these scenarios.
The problem is the cops already have their guns drawn and ready to fire so they go with the path of least resistance in the moment.
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jason_ssr
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City: Dallas, Tx
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| Posted: Aug 28, 2014 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| chavez wrote: |
No kidding. How fast can the average (non-elite-athlete) dude cover SIXTY feet from a stop?? I'm guessing it will be 3-4 seconds or so. That is enough time to react and pick a strategy, especially if you are professionally trained in how to deal with these scenarios.
The problem is the cops already have their guns drawn and ready to fire so they go with the path of least resistance in the moment. |
I'm 40 years old, by no means an elite athlete, and I can run 40's just under 5 sec without too much trouble. I would guess most on here could too. So, half that would be under 2.5 sec. That's not much time to recognize a threat, assess the threat level, and determine the force necessary to neutralize said threat, then draw weapon required by the previous determination.
The loss of life is sad, but in all honesty, I would rather see this scenario end this way that to see an officer who dies of a stab wound while attempting to use less force. This escalation was not due to the will or actions of either officer.
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chavez
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| Posted: Aug 28, 2014 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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jason_ssr, yeah, I doubt us thirty-somethings are running sub 5's. And half that time is not 2.5 seconds. It takes longer to get ramped up to speed than it does to maintain speed.
The guy with the "knife" could have just as easily been taken down using non-lethal methods. Tasers, pepper spray, shoot in the leg, etc. Don't give me this nonsense that lethal force was needed to subdue the guy with the pocket knife. That is ridiculous.
Again, cops have professional training in how to deal with these situations. Why they choose lethal force in the moment is beyond me. They need to be held accountable when their actions are not justified, and perhaps more importantly, they need to be disciplined when they are "justified" but other means would have been a wiser choice.
There is no way to remove the shoot first mentality unless there are consequences for using lethal force when non-lethal force would have been a better choice.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Aug 28, 2014 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Seems to me that is a short amount of time, even with special training.
But I do agree here...
| Quote: | Why they choose lethal force in the moment is beyond me. They need to be held accountable when their actions are not justified, and perhaps more importantly, they need to be disciplined when they are "justified" but other means would have been a wiser choice.
There is no way to remove the shoot first mentality unless there are consequences for using lethal force when non-lethal force would have been a better choice. |
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jt09
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| Posted: Aug 28, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| jason_ssr wrote: | | I'm 40 years old, by no means an elite athlete, and I can run 40's just under 5 sec without too much trouble. |
the hell you can! |
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jryoung
Ladies Man
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| Posted: Aug 28, 2014 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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WB.com 40 yard challenge...run a sub 5 forty or donate $100 to the charity of your choice.
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jt09
Ladies Man
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| Posted: Aug 28, 2014 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| f* that noise! |
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jryoung
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City: Man Jose
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| Posted: Aug 28, 2014 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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5.2?
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eeven73
PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
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| Posted: Aug 28, 2014 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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The over under is 5.15 and 1 torn hamstring.
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jgriffith
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| Posted: Aug 28, 2014 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| We talking feet? I got this |
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goofyboy
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| Posted: Aug 28, 2014 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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I think I can run a 5.0 40. I don't think I have lost that much speed. The only issue is similar to eeven73 --- torn hammy or busted knee or just wouldn't be able to walk well for a few days.
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boardordie
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| Posted: Aug 29, 2014 4:20 am Post subject: |
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You guys are arguing over the wrong amount of distance between the knive and the gun. The amount of ground covered in what Okie is trying to argue should be 20 feet... not 20 yards (60 feet). The other variable is the weapon is still holstered. In the video the first officer already has his weapon drawn so now distance doesn't matter. Not to mention there aren't many cops who can hit a target consistantly at 60 feet with a pistol.
| Quote: | The Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.
Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet (6.4 m), so he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"[1]
A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being charged with murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a "danger zone" where an attacker presented a clear threat.[2]
The Tueller Drill combines both parts of the original time trials by Tueller. There are several ways it can be conducted:[3]
1.The "attacker and shooter are positioned back-to-back. At the signal, the attacker sprints away from the shooter, and the shooter unholsters his gun and shoots at the target 21 feet (6.4 m) in front of him. The attacker stops as soon as the shot is fired. The shooter is successful only if his shot is good and if the runner did not cover 21 feet (6.4 m).
2.A more stressful arrangement is to have the attacker begin 21 feet (6.4 m) behind the shooter and run towards the shooter. The shooter is successful only if he was able take a good shot before he is tapped on the back by the attacker.
3.If the shooter is armed with only a training replica gun, a full-contact drill may be done with the attacker running towards the shooter. In this variation, the shooter should practice side-stepping the attacker while he is drawing the gun.
Mythbusters covered the drill in the 2012 episode "Duel Dilemmas". At 20 feet the gun wielder was able to shoot the charging knife attacker just as he reached the shooter. At shorter distances the knife wielder was always able to stab prior to being shot. |
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jason_ssr
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| Posted: Aug 29, 2014 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| jt09 wrote: | | jason_ssr wrote: | | I'm 40 years old, by no means an elite athlete, and I can run 40's just under 5 sec without too much trouble. |
the hell you can! |
HAHA!!!
You're probably right, JT. We should do the challenge. Somebody come take my money! Bring $100 just in case I get lucky. 
I think youre giving to much credence to "professionally trained". These are cops, not Navy SEALs.
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chavez
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City: Roseville
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| Posted: Aug 29, 2014 6:46 am Post subject: |
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jason_ssr, the point of "professionally trained" is twofold: 1) they absolutely do have training well above and beyond your average joe; and 2) because they received that training, it should be reasonable to expect them to use it in the field.
If the amount of training they receive is not enough (which I would expect to be the case), then we need to revisit the effectiveness of POST and raise the bar accordingly. Or perhaps their ongoing training needs to be reworked.
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eeven73
PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Aug 29, 2014 6:58 am Post subject: |
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IMPO the last thing we need are more rules and regulations. Meaning someone taking a Bubb Rubbing ruler to every shooting scene and, "20.65 feet is the max distance allowed to shoot".
We see all this stuff because everyone has a camera at the ready at all times.
Monday Morning Quarterbacking the distance EVERY cop should be able to react to is horseshit. Yes there are A-hole cops but I think the above mentioned prevelence of cameras has them all on notice. Frankly, the problem(shitty cops) is getting better not worse.
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jt09
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| Posted: Aug 29, 2014 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| eeven73 wrote: | | Frankly, the problem(shitty cops) is getting better not worse. |
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Okie Boarder
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City: Edmond
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| Posted: Aug 29, 2014 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm, I don't think you've thought this one through...
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chavez
Ladies Man
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville
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| Posted: Aug 29, 2014 8:54 am Post subject: |
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eeven73, I'm not advocating for more rules. Better training ≠ more rules. I believe we should expect LEOs to have effective training on how to diffuse situations with the least amount of force required.
jt09, I think in time, given the rapidly increasing number of cameras on LEOs and in their cruisers, we will likely see the trend reverse.
That said though, I have to think the "shitty cop" issue has always been there and has always been this prevalent - it just didn't really see the light of day until basically everyone was packing a video camera.
Okie Boarder, that guy clearly isn't thinking with his head on... at all.
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| Quote: | | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
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jt09
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pet575
Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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City: Kansas City, MO
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| Posted: Aug 29, 2014 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| chavez wrote: | | The guy with the "knife" could have just as easily been taken down using non-lethal methods. Tasers, pepper spray, shoot in the leg, etc. |
I'm the absolute LAST person who would ever be called a cop defender but I respectfully disagree. I've seen a lot of recent statements from cops detailing the flaws and problems with the non-lethal stuff's effectiveness.
Same opinions regarding the skill and ability to choose a Billy Zabka type of shot in the heat of the moment. They start shooting for critical mass when there is an immediate threat. Many say that hitting critical mass doesn't always stop the perp either.
Point of what a lot of that commentary is offering is that all of us are armchair QB's based on what we see on TV/movies and it doesn't work much like that at all when someone gets shot.
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jason_ssr
Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 4054
City: Dallas, Tx
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| Posted: Aug 29, 2014 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| chavez wrote: | jason_ssr, the point of "professionally trained" is twofold: 1) they absolutely do have training well above and beyond your average joe; and 2) because they received that training, it should be reasonable to expect them to use it in the field.
If the amount of training they receive is not enough (which I would expect to be the case), then we need to revisit the effectiveness of POST and raise the bar accordingly. Or perhaps their ongoing training needs to be reworked. |
I understand what you are saying, and I see why its a reasonable line of thinking. However, I see it more akin to when you see a black belt get into a fight at a bar. There are no cool kung fu moves. Its all reduced to the same bar fight slop. You can have all the comfort training there is, but when schtuff starts to hit the fan, it all goes back to slop. Requiring the local PD to be peak physical and mental specimens and instinct training them to be on auto-pilot like a soldier goes against my complaint of the continued militarization of local law enforcement.
I like my local officer to be Barney Fife.
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jt09
Ladies Man
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City: Austin
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| Posted: Sep 03, 2014 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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more of these guys please:
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Okie Boarder
Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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City: Edmond
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| Posted: Sep 03, 2014 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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LOL, yup.
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pet575
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| Posted: Sep 08, 2014 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Apologies if this has been posted previously but I lost track with all the Ferguson stuff. This has been a big story in Missouri. Kid got cuffed for a BUI and put on board the water patrol's boat in handcuffs and with a life vest OVER him but not with his arms through it. He went overboard somehow and the life jacket came off. He went down and never came up.
| Quote: |
For three months, Larry and Paulette Moreau kept quiet.
No more.
In interviews Saturday and Sunday, the Moreaus told The Star that the full truth didn’t come out at an inquest last week into the death of 20-year-old Brandon Ellingson, who drowned May 31 while in the custody of a Missouri Highway Patrol trooper.
In the days immediately after Ellingson’s death, the Moreaus sent an email to the Highway Patrol to share what they and their son witnessed that afternoon on the Lake of the Ozarks.
The patrol sent an investigator to interview the Moreaus separately and on different days. Larry Moreau said he and his wife told the investigator how Trooper Anthony Piercy had sped past them and how they saw Piercy and Ellingson seemingly chatting in the patrol boat. Seconds later, they saw Piercy’s boat stop ahead of them. Ellingson was in the water, keeping his head above the surface, and his life vest was floating away.
The Moreaus told the patrol investigator that once Piercy had maneuvered his boat next to Ellingson, the trooper showed no urgency in helping the man in the water, didn’t turn on his red lights and didn’t motion for them to assist. The family eventually left the area thinking the trooper had everything under control.
They had no idea that, beneath the water’s surface, Ellingson’s hands were cuffed behind his back. They did not know that the young man would soon slip to the bottom of the lake.
“We’ve been reading this stuff for months,” Larry Moreau, of Hartsburg, Mo., told The Star. “When the officer went back to work (days after the drowning), I bit my tongue. … I tried to stay neutral. I didn’t get terribly involved in this.
“But I thought, ‘If they come out and try to say this guy was the hero and did everything he could, I’m going to start talking.’”
The incident is like a movie for Paulette Moreau and her husband, she said. “A movie we’ve seen a hundred times in our head since it happened.
“If people could visually see what we saw, they would be outraged.”
Since the Morgan County coroner’s inquest on Thursday — when jurors heard from Piercy, two members of the Highway Patrol and one witness from the lake before finding Ellingson’s death to be accidental — the Moreaus have gone to Facebook and the comment sections on newspaper articles to share their disgust. They can’t understand why authorities kept information out of the inquest, especially testimony from more people who saw Ellingson in the water during his last minutes alive.
“The investigation has proven to be just as sickening as witnessing the event,” Larry Moreau wrote in one comment section. In a phone interview with The Star, he said the patrol has shown “a lack of bringing forth the truth.”
The couple have spoken to a lawyer for Ellingson’s estate and family in Clive, Iowa. On Saturday, Larry Moreau explained some of their concerns to that attorney, Matt Boles. Among them:
The Highway Patrol’s boating accident report gives Piercy’s estimated speed as 10 mph. Larry Moreau said he was operating his boat at 32 mph when Piercy passed him. (Moreau said he was keeping an eye on his speed because he had recently done mechanical work on the boat.)
Records from the patrol boat’s GPS system, which The Star has obtained, say Piercy was “traveling at between 39.1 and 43.7 miles per hour just before this incident occurred.” The boat’s speed was not provided in the courtroom during the inquest.
The trooper who interviewed Larry Moreau days after the drowning told the mid-Missouri man he would probably be subpoenaed at some point to explain what he saw. But Moreau wasn’t called for the inquest, and when he read a Highway Patrol report about his account, which he saw for the first time over the weekend, key parts of his information were not included.
A tearful Piercy told jurors at the inquest that he had worked himself to exhaustion trying to save Ellingson. Another witness who came upon the scene after the Moreaus said the trooper did everything he could. But Larry Moreau said that during the 60 to 90 seconds that his family observed Piercy, the trooper was close enough to touch Ellingson at least twice and didn’t jump in the water to help keep him afloat.
Piercy jumped in later, after the Moreaus had moved on, and after a failed attempt to use a pole with a hook to try to grab Ellingson.
“To tell you the truth, I really thought, my hopes were, that someone would hear our testimony and come back and say: ‘What did you see? Tell me what happened,’” Larry Moreau said.
Phone messages and emails left with Piercy’s lawyer and the Highway Patrol were not returned Sunday night.
When contacted Sunday evening, Morgan County coroner M.B. Jones said he didn’t have the final report with him and would look Monday for the Moreaus’ statements to the patrol.
For his part, Boles said he has questions about why the Moreaus were not included in the inquest.
The role of a coroner’s inquest is to determine the manner in which someone died, whether it was an accident or a crime.
Jurors listened to several hours of testimony — more than an hour from Piercy himself — and went to the lake to see the patrol boat. The three women and three men deliberated less than eight minutes before they returned their finding.
After the inquest, Jones said he would complete the death certificate and say Ellingson died from an accident.
‘Why didn’t he ask for help?’
The Moreaus were out for a boat ride on that last afternoon in May, traveling south down the Gravois Arm, when the patrol boat came up beside them before passing.
The couple’s son pointed at the patrol boat. “All three of us stared at them when they went by,” Moreau said.
As the two boats approached the Playin Hooky Water Taxi and Charter, the patrol boat was so close to the Moreaus’ boat that “I could have tossed a rock in their boat,” Larry Moreau said.
The Moreaus have a house at the lake and dock their boat at the marina near H. Toad’s Bar and Grill. The patrol has a zone office in the complex around the restaurant, and Piercy was taking Ellingson there for a Breathalyzer and paperwork for an arrest for boating while intoxicated.
Because the Moreaus dock near the zone office, they often see troopers. They didn’t think the man in the boat with the trooper that day was a suspect because he wasn’t sitting in front of the console, on a lower seat, where suspects often are placed.
Moreau said he figured the man next to the trooper was a cameraman documenting the start of the boating season.
The family didn’t pay any more attention to the patrol boat until about 30 seconds later, when they say they noticed it had slowed ahead. Then the trooper turned to the right.
“We saw the patrol boat in front of us, drifting into our path,” Paulette Moreau said.
“I said, ‘There’s somebody in the water,’” she said.
During the inquest, Piercy told jurors that after Ellingson left the boat, he turned his boat while keeping his eye on Ellingson. He saw the young man’s life vest separate from him. Piercy ended up killing the engine and then restarting it.
The life vest that came off Ellingson was a Type III, with armholes. It could not be properly secured on an already-handcuffed person. Piercy had grabbed it while arresting Ellingson, even though the trooper also had a Type I or Type II life jacket on his patrol boat. Those personal flotation devices can be secured on a handcuffed person.
Moreau said Piercy eventually let his boat coast right up to Ellingson, who bumped into the boat and slid along it.
Piercy went to the side of the boat and looked at the man in the water. “He could have reached down and slapped him,” Moreau said.
Then the trooper went to the back of the boat. “He bent down, put his hands on his knees, looking down at him. Looked to me like he was standing there talking to him. … As he was leaning over talking to him, the boat is still drifting. The whole time, Brandon is getting farther from the boat.
“The whole thing was, there was no urgency. The officer was never running, waving his arms, saying help him. Nothing. His lights were never on. There was no sense of urgency whatsoever.”
The Moreaus were at least 150 feet away. They said they didn’t move closer because they were afraid they would create a wake that would cause more trouble.
“We were sitting there, engine idling, watching this whole thing to see if anyone needed assistance,” Moreau said. “We were close enough, if we knew this boy was handcuffed, we could have helped him.
“We could have saved him. It’s disheartening that if this guy didn’t know what he was doing, why didn’t he ask for help? And even if he thought he did know what he was doing, the life jacket was off the kid.”
When Piercy went to retrieve something on the boat, the Moreaus thought everything was good. The Playin Hooky boat was coming up from behind, so the family went on to H. Toad’s.
Jim Bascue, the owner of the Playin Hooky boat, who did testify at the inquest, has said he saw Piercy try to communicate with Ellingson at the side of the boat. Bascue said he didn’t see Piercy lean down at the back of the boat to talk with Ellingson. From what he saw, and the way Piercy jumped in to save a struggling Ellingson, the trooper was acting with urgency, Bascue said.
Once the Moreaus had docked their boat, they saw a trooper coming down to his boat.
Larry Moreau hollered out to him: “Hey, your buddy lost one of the camera guys. He fell in the water.”
“That wasn’t a camera man, that was a suspect,” the trooper said. “And he’s missing.”
Moreau said: “What do you mean, he’s missing?”
The trooper said the suspect “went under water and is gone.”
“We were left there stunned,” Moreau said. “From what we saw, it was impossible for that to happen. … How did the boy drown right in front of him?”
The couple felt disbelief and anger.
“There was no reason for it,” Paulette Moreau said.
Prosecutor to decide
At the inquest, Piercy said he didn’t have enough training for what he faced on the lake that day.
The 18-year Highway Patrol veteran had received a boat course in fall 2012 and marine operations training in spring 2013.
“I used to think when I went to work, I can handle any situation thrown at me,” he testified. “This let me know how vulnerable I am.”
He said he was more comfortable working on the state’s highways. “I have more experience there.”
He was on the lake because the state Water Patrol was merged into the Highway Patrol in January 2011, a move that Gov. Jay Nixon said would allow for cost savings and greater efficiency.
Piercy said he had received no training about which type of life jacket to use on an already-handcuffed suspect.
Piercy’s patrol boat had cameras, but the digital card that records video was not in the boat that day. Piercy told jurors at the inquest that he realized earlier in his shift, before he pulled Ellingson’s boat over, that the card had been removed by another trooper to download data. Piercy continued working without it.
Special prosecutor Amanda Grellner has said she expected to review the case immediately after the inquest. Her decision on whether to file charges could come as early as this week.
Someone needs to go back and read all the witnesses’ testimony, Larry Moreau said, to make sure everything pieces together.
The Moreaus said family friends have advised them to not get involved.
“But if this was my son on that boat who drowned, I would ask for anyone who saw anything to stand up and say what they saw. I would want to know the truth.”
Moreau said he has always had respect for the Highway Patrol and knows the hardships troopers put themselves in every day. That’s why, he said, he doesn’t understand what the agency is doing now.
“I would question why the patrol isn’t saying this was handled inappropriately.” |
http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article1875778.html
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RampageWake
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RampageWake
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jt09
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chavez
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| Posted: Sep 25, 2014 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Wouldn't attempted murder be the correct charge here?
Anyhow, at least the thin blue line isn't trying to sweep this under a rug.
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| Quote: | | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
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jt09
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| Posted: Sep 25, 2014 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| how is it attempted murder? attempted manslaughter maybe, but not murder. |
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STPHNSN23
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| Posted: Sep 26, 2014 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| jt09 wrote: | | attempted manslaughter |
this is not a thing. |
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chavez
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| Posted: Sep 26, 2014 6:21 am Post subject: |
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It's definitely assault/battery (possibly special circumstances due to a firearm), but I'd assume the shots were as an attempt on his life. Which is why I'm curious why they aren't mixing in an attempted murder charge. Because it doesn't appear premeditated, if the shot ended up killing the guy I would expect murder 2 as the charge due to the video evidence - it's pretty hard to claim self-defense given what everyone has seen, which is why he's been fired.
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Okie Boarder
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STPHNSN23
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| Posted: Sep 26, 2014 7:48 am Post subject: |
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did you read the article? did you read your link? do those to relate to each other at all? manslaughter in this case would be an unintentional homicide. how can you attempt to unintentionally kill someone? |
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jt09
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| Posted: Sep 26, 2014 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| chavez wrote: | | Because it doesn't appear premeditated |
that's where i was going w/ the previous comment.
<---not a lawyer, did not sleep at holiday inn express last night. |
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pet575
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Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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City: Kansas City, MO
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| Posted: Sep 26, 2014 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Attempted Voluntary Manslaughter........key word "Voluntary."
Also, be careful with Justia citations referring to California law when this took place in South Carolina. Why would California's AVM law be relevant here?
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