Hobby Lobby Decision

[goofyboy]

IMO the democrats should have just gone full court press for a single payer system and rammed it through the same way they did this. They would have succeeded in their goal, companies would not be put in this position and we would all be equally screwed.

[eeven73]

[chavez]

[eeven73]

tell me how it is nonsense.

Title IX, Affirmative Action...... etc says you are wrong.

It's just like Animal Farm, everyone is equal well except pigs.

Does it make logical sense to you that under the ACA insurance companies can't rate women differently than men? It's a fact a woman will use more care on average than a man over there life, but that isn't convenient for those who want to pander to women so...

[Neognosis]

Is Hobby Lobby aware that some of the products that they sell which are made in China are made in a society that encourages abortion, and in some cases mandates them with the threat of fines?

Why is it ok to buy cheap goods from such a society and profit from it?


Ahhhhh... I answered my own question. The real God is profit.

[goofyboy]

Well, yes. Always follow the money.

[RampageWake]

I'm sure it would have been cheaper for Hobby Lobby to go along with contraception rather than take it all the way to the SC if profits were their only motive. Don't let that get in the way of a rant against filthy capitalism though, comrade!

[goofyboy]

Don't know. Depends on the plans that were offered and how they were offered by the insurance companies. Corporate lawyer is on retainer, so not really charged by the hour. I'm sure money is involved at some level. Cut coverage of any kind and get a better deal multiplied by x1000's of employees...

[eeven73]

Ummmm a case that gets to SC get well beyond any retainer.

[Neognosis]

Sure, it cost them some money to go all the way to the supreme court, I imagine (unless they had their religious organization back them)

But what's so interesting is that they have no problem buying from a society that encourages abortion, in some cases imposing fines on families who DON'T have one. (though this is not as common as it was a decade ago). They also have some very lax labor laws.


Seems pretty selective.

So we're clear.... against their moral beliefs to pay into healthcare that provides the IUD.

Not against their moral beliefs to buy from a society that encourages and abortions and has some very lax labor laws.


I guess that's what Jesus would do? I do seem to recall from Mark 21: 1-7, when Jesus said "and if your brother causeth his neighbor to suffer under his yoke, and pollute the river jordan with his waste, or taketh adantage of his poverty and drive him as his slave, then gather up his wares for thine own profit."

Oh, wait, jesus would have said exactly the opposite. Maybe they hang with a different Jesus or something.

[eeven73]

Neognosis,

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

[RampageWake]

I'm not religious so I don't know what drives people of faith, but I know Hobby Lobby supposedly already pays their employees better than the minimum wage being discussed in Washington (as a political tool). I also know they close on Sundays when they could be making more profits. So to imply that they are hypocritical based on their greed is selective at best and probably disingenuous based on how smart you are.
I don't care if an employer hands out free coat hangers, it doesn't affect my shopping patterns. If it bothers someone else, they are free to not work for these people or to not do business with them. I also don't care what the Chinese do as a society; I work for a multi-national company and all the Chinese people I have met have been A-OK with me. I don't feel that interacting with them means I believe communism, I don't.

[chavez]

[eeven73]

Does it make logical sense to you that under the ACA insurance companies can't rate women differently than men? It's a fact a woman will use more care on average than a man over there life, but that isn't convenient for those who want to pander to women so...


Answer this question.

[chavez]

[eeven73]

[chavez]

eeven73, there is a saying that is almost universally applied in my industry:

"Past performance may not be indicative of future results"

It might conflict slightly with the saying "those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it", but it at least brushes upon the notion that we cannot accurately predict the future, but we can potentially shape it based on knowledge.

Just sayin.

[Neognosis]

My fallacy is not the black and white fallacy.

It's actually a red herring.


However, I do not understand their backwards position that allows them to buy goods from workers who work in adverse conditions with little pay and even less protection, in a society who's government encourages all the methods of birth control that they are refusing to contribute to for their employees, as well as state sanctioned abortion.


How do they reconcile that disconnect?



The next step for the US is to swap the ACA for single payer. In a single payer system, it doesn't matter what your sex or age is.


I learned a lot when I went to Denmark. All the boobie men that americans trot out to justify a fear of socialized health care simply don't exist in denmark. For instance, a lot of danes smoke. The gov't hasn't taken away their right to smoke. One of the arguments that you hear is that if there is a single payer system, then the gov't will reach out and ban unhealthy practices and regulate diet. But that has not happened there. I don't know why. Maybe because they have a different culture, and fewer people that don't want to contribute.

[eeven73]

[eeven73]

Just speculation, but I would imagine Hobby Lobby wouldn't have anything to sell if they said we will only buy and sell made in USA. Does that make it right? Don't know. Frankly, for all I know they could have fairly strict supply mandates with vendors in regards to worker conditions(many major importing companies do).

[chavez]

[eeven73]

Just curious, what Fed Gov't agency would you hold up as gold standard of performance of there duties?

[Neognosis]

I trust the gov't about as much as I trust private corporations to act in my best interest.


What it comes down to, though, is that healthcare should not be treated as a commodity, IMO.

[chavez]

[eeven73]

Its a serious question. Not trying to bait. I sit here and
Try to think of a Fed Agency that isnt well quite fd up.

I dont disagree with distrust of Corps as well. To me it boils down
to the corps have a limit to there tomfollery by the capital limit of the
corporation. Feds just print more money, raise fees, taxes etc etc.
If a corp gets out of line it goes away( for the most part). When the
feds get out of line they "reform" the troubled entity.

[chavez]

eeven73, a few orgs off the top of my head I can not recall many issues with:

NIST
USGS
NOAA
USCG

[eeven73]

I lol'd

Had to look up what the NIST is.

Not really is the same realm, but OK.

[chavez]

eeven73, you didn't know what NIST was? These are all very important agencies within the gov't.

All of those agencies have budgets exceeding 1bb.

[eeven73]

If you say so.

HHS $940B

Not same ballbark.


Hey, maybe I am wrong and we get to single payer and I have to eat shovels of crow. Just don't believe so.

[jason_ssr]

whats sad is we no longer debate the fact that healthcare is a service, not an entitlement.

We are the frog in the pot and its getting warmer.

[Okie Boarder]

Neognosis, interesting question, for sure. It's amazing to me how easy it is for a belief to be promoted as core reasoning for one's actions, but then find contradictions. We've been seeing that more and more and it has shaped some of our personal decisions and convictions.

The IUD seems a bit silly to not be included as one form of BC they should cover, but ultimately this ruling still left them with a majority of the forms of BC as ones that should be part of their plan, leaving their female employees a lot of choices.

[ohsix]

[Neognosis]

[chavez]

[eeven73]