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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 7:12 am Post subject: Why ban it? |
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Doesn't make sense to me. If people think it works for them, let them use the therapy. If you think it is wrong, junk science, etc. then don't use it. Why does the government have to step in and dictate it?
Quote: | SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — California has become the first state to ban a controversial form of psychotherapy aimed at making gay teenagers straight.
Gov. Jerry Brown announced Sunday that he had signed SB1172 by Democratic Senator Ted Lieu of Torrance. The law, which prohibits sexual orientation change efforts for anyone under 18, will stop children from being psychologically abused, Lieu said.
Effective Jan. 1, the state will ban what is known as reparative or conversion therapy for minors. The therapies "have no basis in science or medicine and they will now be relegated to the dustbin of quackery," Brown said in a statement.
Mainstream mental health organizations have disavowed such therapy, and a number of mental health associations in California — including the state's Board of Behavorial Sciences, the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists and the California Psychological Association — supported the legislation.
Gay rights groups have called the practice dangerous because it can put youth at higher risk of depression and suicide.
"We're grateful to Gov. Brown for standing with California's children," the Human Rights Campaign said in a statement. "LGBT youth will now be protected from a practice that has not only been debunked as junk science, but has been proven to have drastically negative effects on their well-being."
The group called on other states to follow California's lead on the issue.
Conservative religious groups and some Republicans have argued that banning conversion therapy would hinder parents' right to provide psychological care for children experiencing gender confusion.
The Encino, Calif.-based National Association for Research and Therapy on Homosexuality said in August that the bill was a case of "legislative overreach," and Lieu's claims of harm to children were based on politics, not research. |
http://news.yahoo.com/california-law-bans-gay-teen-conversion-therapy-053700163.html _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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chavez Ladies Man
Joined: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 27375 City: Roseville
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Why ban it.... hmm... let me think of about a billion ways a parent should not be able to abuse a child... _________________
Quote: | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006 |
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pet575 Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 20 Jun 2006 Posts: 3630 City: Kansas City, MO
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 7:29 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand why this is even needed. Why not just beat the gay out of them? Or guilt it out of them using a book that is a couple thousand years old which has all the answers? _________________
Wakebrad wrote: | I honestly think it has to do with internet penetration... |
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jgriffith Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 1454 City: Boerne
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 7:33 am Post subject: |
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chavez, I have no idea what the treatment mentioned involves, but do you think all psychotherapy is child abuse or just the type that you disagree with? |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 7:33 am Post subject: |
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chavez wrote: | Why ban it.... hmm... let me think of about a billion ways a parent should not be able to abuse a child... |
Why do you consider it abuse? _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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chavez Ladies Man
Joined: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 27375 City: Roseville
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 7:41 am Post subject: |
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OMFG do I really have to explain this sh*t to you guys? _________________
Quote: | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006 |
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Rhawn Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 14 Jun 2006 Posts: 3127 City: Richmond, V to the Izzay
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 8:25 am Post subject: |
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jgriffith wrote: | chavez, I have no idea what the treatment mentioned involves..... |
Then maybe you should look it up. Its not your average 'therapy'. _________________ WakeSurf and Wakesurfing News |
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jgriffith Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 1454 City: Boerne
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 8:29 am Post subject: |
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I wouldnt even know how to look it up. What makes it "not your average therapy"? Why is it child abuse? Is all psycotherapy child abuse? If not, what makes this?
Last edited by jgriffith on Oct 01, 2012 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 8:29 am Post subject: |
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chavez, isn't that is what a discussion is about...sharing your point of view and expanding on it if someone asks for clarification? _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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ohsix PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 6837
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 8:31 am Post subject: |
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jgriffith wrote: | chavez, I have no idea what the treatment mentioned involves, but do you think all psychotherapy is child abuse or just the type that you disagree with? |
I really don't care either way about the gay psychotherapy ban, but I think jgriffith poses a legitimate question.
There are reasons other than sexual orientation that parents will send their kids to psychotherapy for. Many of these reasons could probably be argued as harmful for the kids' mental health. Why not ban all psychotherapy for minors that is not court approved?
I can see how trying to "treat the gay out of a kid" could cause serious mental and emotional issues. I think trying to treat anything relative to a direction a kid wants to take in life could cause the same mental and emotional issues. |
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Nor*Cal Ladies Man
Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Mainstream mental health organizations have disavowed such therapy, and a number of mental health associations in California — including the state's Board of Behavorial Sciences, the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists and the California Psychological Association — supported the legislation. |
Just wanted to emphasize this...
This wasn't even the most egregious thing passed this year but ok, let me hear what non-Californians think.
Unless there is a special session all the bills have been chaptered (signed into law) and/or vetoed for the year, the legislature is off campaigning and my only worries are the regulations being developed by the bureaucracy, which is more troublesome. Live to fight another year, some big victories, some palatable defeats, some issues to litigate... _________________ If I agreed with you we would both be wrong. |
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Partyb Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1810 City: Lantana, FL
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 8:37 am Post subject: |
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jgriffith wrote: | I wouldnt even know how to look it up. What makes it "not your average therapy"? Why is it child abuse? Is all psycotherapy child abuse? If not, what makes this? |
Holy crap, you never heard of Google?
How about we try this for hetero kids of gay parents to make the kids gay? Or maybe for criminals? Are you getting the picture? |
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RampageWake Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 23 Jul 2003 Posts: 2002 City: Houston
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Okie wrote: | If people think it works for them, let them use the therapy. If you think it is wrong, junk science, etc. then don't use it. Why does the government have to step in and dictate it? |
Are we talking about abortion? _________________
Rhawn wrote: | You should have a less retarded friend read over your posts before you hit "Submit"
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RIP M.H.Legge |
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jgriffith Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 1454 City: Boerne
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Partyb wrote: | jgriffith wrote: | I wouldnt even know how to look it up. What makes it "not your average therapy"? Why is it child abuse? Is all psycotherapy child abuse? If not, what makes this? |
Holy crap, you never heard of Google?
How about we try this for hetero kids of gay parents to make the kids gay? Or maybe for criminals? Are you getting the picture? |
Apparently its a controversial therapy according to Google, ok now I know why it is child abuse. Thanks for the tip that Google is pretty cool! |
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jgriffith Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 1454 City: Boerne
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 8:51 am Post subject: |
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RampageWake wrote: | Okie wrote: | If people think it works for them, let them use the therapy. If you think it is wrong, junk science, etc. then don't use it. Why does the government have to step in and dictate it? |
Are we talking about abortion? |
Are we comparing murder to junk science |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 9:15 am Post subject: |
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RampageWake wrote: | Okie wrote: | If people think it works for them, let them use the therapy. If you think it is wrong, junk science, etc. then don't use it. Why does the government have to step in and dictate it? |
Are we talking about abortion? |
Well, the statement I made is very similar to what those supporting abortion do say. I know you made the comment facetiously, but it seems like it should go both ways, IMO.
Just as much as one group thinks the therapy is abuse or harmful to a human child, another group thinks similarly about abortion.
My whole thing is, why dictate these sorts of things. Why not let people have the freedom to choose how they want to live their lives and raise their children.
What is a law was passed banning parents from spanking their children? _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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Nor*Cal Ladies Man
Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Okie Boarder, those aren't equivalent and there are laws about child abuse. Someone has to advocate for the children and set up standards, your argument is probably also what was applied when child labor laws were put in place. _________________ If I agreed with you we would both be wrong. |
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Neognosis Ladies Man
Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 9:41 am Post subject: |
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It is pretty clear that you should not be allowed to do anything to someone else' living child that is going to harm them.
Okie is trying to use the slippery slope argument, which I almost never buy.
There are clearly degrees, and a society will decide where those lines are.
Right now, it is considered abusive and it is illegal to strip your child naked and beat them with a whip with bits of metal embedded in the tips. It is also illegal to deny your child food and shelter for any extended period of time. Having these things being illegal for a long time has so far not resulted in it being illegal to spank your child (within reason) or to make them go outside to play.
Quote: | My whole thing is, why dictate these sorts of things. Why not let people have the freedom to choose how they want to live their lives and raise their children. |
We do let people have the freedom to choose how they want to live their lives and raise their children. But, with anything, there are lines that our society decides.
I see no reason to be against banning a practice that is not based in science, and has been shown to be emotionally damaging to children and which exhibits a tie to adolescent suicide. If it is not harmful, then have at it, even though we all know you aren't going to ever change someone's sexual orientation.
Would it be ok to do something harmful to a child as long as you call it "therapy?" _________________ I walk 47 miles of barb wire, I got a cobra snake for a necktie, a brand new house up on the road side, and it's made out of rattlesnake hide |
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eeven73 PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 5377 City: Halfway
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Would it be ok to do something harmful to a child as long as you call it "therapy?"
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How about the current trend of not immunizing children? _________________ Is President Obama a Keynesian? |
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jgriffith Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 1454 City: Boerne
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 10:16 am Post subject: |
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eeven73 wrote: | Quote: | Would it be ok to do something harmful to a child as long as you call it "therapy?"
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How about the current trend of not immunizing children? |
The ignorance involved in this trend is really sad. However, I feel it should be the parent's right to choose against immunization. |
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Neognosis Ladies Man
Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 10:29 am Post subject: |
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I don't believe you can mandate immunizations for a child, however I do believe that you can make it a requirement for certain public services, like public school. _________________ I walk 47 miles of barb wire, I got a cobra snake for a necktie, a brand new house up on the road side, and it's made out of rattlesnake hide |
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Nor*Cal Ladies Man
Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 11:08 am Post subject: |
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eeven73 wrote: | Quote: | Would it be ok to do something harmful to a child as long as you call it "therapy?"
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How about the current trend of not immunizing children? |
Please read: http://gov.ca.gov/docs/AB_2109_Signing_Message.pdf _________________ If I agreed with you we would both be wrong. |
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eeven73 PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 5377 City: Halfway
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 11:23 am Post subject: |
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So that bill does exactly what?
Reads to me like NOTHING. _________________ Is President Obama a Keynesian? |
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eeven73 PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 5377 City: Halfway
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 11:25 am Post subject: |
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The fact we(society) have to deal with bedbugs and polio drives me nuts _________________ Is President Obama a Keynesian? |
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jgriffith Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 1454 City: Boerne
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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eeven73, so you think parents should be forced to immunize their children so we(society) do not have to deal with certain diseases?
Do you also think the government should regulate what we eat, how much exercise we have, if we should go to counceling, etc, etc. to prevent other health problems?
For the record I am strongly in favor of everyone having immunizations and I think it is sad when parents choose not to, especially when they are mis/uninformed. However, that decision should not be made by the government. |
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Neognosis Ladies Man
Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Immunization and the regulation of exercise and diet are like apples and oranges.
The decision to immunize or not is not made by the government. _________________ I walk 47 miles of barb wire, I got a cobra snake for a necktie, a brand new house up on the road side, and it's made out of rattlesnake hide |
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jgriffith Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 1454 City: Boerne
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Neognosis wrote: | Immunization and the regulation of exercise and diet are like apples and oranges.
The decision to immunize or not is not made by the government. |
I have no idea what the point of this post is? |
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eeven73 PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 5377 City: Halfway
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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I am NOT in favor of a gov't mandate for immunization.
I do think you have to be a complete idiot to not immunize your kids.
In fact if they are going jail people for not taking their kids to the doctor(religious belief) it probably should be a crime. _________________ Is President Obama a Keynesian? |
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Neognosis Ladies Man
Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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There IS NO gov't mandate for immunization.
Just so everyone understands. Because this is how stupid spreads. _________________ I walk 47 miles of barb wire, I got a cobra snake for a necktie, a brand new house up on the road side, and it's made out of rattlesnake hide |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Nor*Cal wrote: | Okie Boarder, those aren't equivalent and there are laws about child abuse. Someone has to advocate for the children and set up standards, your argument is probably also what was applied when child labor laws were put in place. |
Fair enough...I don't necessarily disagree. _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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CB,I assume if a similar type of therapy was being used to deal with teenage alcohol or drug abuse, you would also be ok banning it? _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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chavez Ladies Man
Joined: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 27375 City: Roseville
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Okie Boarder wrote: | CB,I assume if a similar type of therapy was being used to deal with teenage alcohol or drug abuse, you would also be ok banning it? |
Omfg
Dude those items are illegal for minors. Last I checked being LGBT was not. _________________
Quote: | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006 |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Understood, but it never seemed like the issue with the article or this discussion was a focus on legality...simply methods of the therapy and whether it is abuse, right? Does the legality change something in your mind about this subject? _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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chavez Ladies Man
Joined: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 27375 City: Roseville
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Posted: Oct 01, 2012 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Okie Boarder wrote: | Does the legality change something in your mind about this subject? |
Does a bear sh/t in the woods? _________________
Quote: | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006 |
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goofyboy Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Posts: 4463 City: Houston
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Posted: Oct 02, 2012 2:46 am Post subject: |
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As long as people are still of the opinion that being homosexual is a choice (and I'm not talking about the two hot college chicks kissing in the club), then we will still have these types of discussions. _________________ Work SUX! |
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