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Getting Pulled Off-Axis on 360s: VIDEO

 
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TheHebrewHammer
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PostPosted: Apr 23, 2011 7:09 pm    Post subject: Getting Pulled Off-Axis on 360s: VIDEO Reply with quote

I've been trying to land a HS FS 360 behind the shitty old boat at my college. The wake is small, so I'm having to take a hard edge and go wake to wake with it, which is adding speed and line tension and generally making the trick more difficult and the slams more painful Crying or Very sad

In both of these attempts, I seem to be getting "corked" (is that the correct term?) off-axis so that I'm facing down at the water when I bring it around for the landing and just bellyflopping into the water. I think it's because I'm looking down throughout the rotation. I've been told to look up at the treetops/horizon. Will this help me keep the board under me? Any other tips? This is my first big trick (haven't tried any inverts yet) so your advice would be much appreciated!

Vid 1: This is my best attempt yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYITrMH_VLU

Vid 2: Skip to 0:55 for this 2nd attempt of the day. The quality is awful because my buddy had his finger on the lens, sorry Laughing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iXBfIlaa0s

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LiveToRide36
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PostPosted: Apr 24, 2011 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so it looks like that you are allowing yourself to be pulled forward when your going into the 360. what you need to do is lean back yes it will help to look up at the horizon but the main thing is you need to wait just a little bit longer to start the rotation this will help you need want to drift as far forward. Just lean back and start just a little later and you got it
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PostPosted: Apr 24, 2011 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LiveToRide36 wrote:
so it looks like that you are allowing yourself to be pulled forward when your going into the 360. what you need to do is lean back yes it will help to look up at the horizon but the main thing is you need to wait just a little bit longer to start the rotation this will help you need want to drift as far forward. Just lean back and start just a little later and you got it


Do you think I have enough air time to wait a bit longer and still finish the rotation in time for a clean landing? Do I need to spin faster?

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LiveToRide36
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PostPosted: Apr 24, 2011 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well there is no way your going to be able to land the 360 by spinning off the wake. ok i can take that back you can land it but it will be very inconsistant. yes you do need to spin faster. if you bring your legs up while you spin this will help tremondously. you were spending with your legs almost straights which slows you down and makes the trick a little bit harder. if you want to practice what you can do is tie a handle to a tree or something and just work on getting the 360 on your jump alone. this will help with the handle pass, rotation and bringin up your legs.
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PostPosted: Apr 25, 2011 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically you just need to wait until you are in the air then pull with both hands to your trailing hip to initiate the rotation.

Pop, then once your in the air, pull and pass.

For example when you do regular HS FS 180s (assuming you do them, if not you should definitely get use to throwing them), you don't rotate the 180 until the last half of the trick. It is the same thing with 360s. It might feel like you aren't going to make it when you wait, but when you wait and pull with both hands you will rotate a lot faster. Plus the pull with both hands will get rid of the line tension making the handle pass possible.

Another tip, maybe try either ollie 360s off of a roller or going "inside out" of the wake. This is an easy way to get use to the rotation and handle pass without taking the awful diggers like you did in the video.
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TheHebrewHammer
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PostPosted: Apr 25, 2011 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

colefooter wrote:
Basically you just need to wait until you are in the air then pull with both hands to your trailing hip to initiate the rotation.

Pop, then once your in the air, pull and pass.

For example when you do regular HS FS 180s (assuming you do them, if not you should definitely get use to throwing them), you don't rotate the 180 until the last half of the trick. It is the same thing with 360s. It might feel like you aren't going to make it when you wait, but when you wait and pull with both hands you will rotate a lot faster. Plus the pull with both hands will get rid of the line tension making the handle pass possible.

Another tip, maybe try either ollie 360s off of a roller or going "inside out" of the wake. This is an easy way to get use to the rotation and handle pass without taking the awful diggers like you did in the video.


Great advice mate, thanks. My HS FS 180s are huge into the flats and super solid, but as you said, I feel like I won't make it if I wait too long because of the small wake. I guess I'll just have to trust that the two-handed pull you're talking about will make me rotate faster. I can't wait to try that! Unfortunately, I don't think I could get the height I would need to do an ollie, inside-out, or roller 3, at least not on this boat.

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PostPosted: Apr 25, 2011 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, strictly with respect to the off-axis issue, take a look at the position of your hands in both of these vids when you hit the wake. Your hands and arms are centered pretty much on your chest and are either straight like a water skier or your are pulling on the rope with your elbows. If you keep the handle on your lead hip it is going to help big-time to keep you from getting off-axis.
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PostPosted: Apr 25, 2011 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tried some more today. The wake was a lot smaller than in the vids because we didn't have as many people in the boat. I was too focused on getting enough height to focus on the rotation. I couldn't concentrate on all the little body/handle position things I needed to do. My attempts were chaotic and went everywhere but in the right direction. Pretty frustrating.

Next time, I'm going to start trying them 1 wake. Even if I can't make 'em, at least I'll get the handle pass into muscle memory and clean up my form. I just can't focus on the little things with all that speed and line tension yanking me into a huge slam.

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PostPosted: Apr 30, 2011 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tried some more on the bigger wake today. I solved the corking problem for the most part. I habitually suck my knees up to my chest on HS wake jumps, even when I'm not grabbing, and it turned out that this was throwing me into a sort of a backflip rotation. Keeping my legs extended made the rotation a lot more controlled, and it was just one less thing to think about.

I have plenty of height and rotation speed, but unfortunately, I still can't seem to get the handle pass. It's just really unnatural for me. I can't practice it on a trampoline and my surface 360s suck, so I'm having to learn on the fly. On the good attempts, I'm sticking the handle into my back but not reaching for it aggressively enough with my catching hand and therefore stalling in the blind position and slamming on my back. I feel like I should've had it a long time ago. It's mostly a psychological thing at this point. I'm just plain scared.

Also, I've been trying them frontside and backside. Frontside seemed like the most logical choice because I'm very comfortable with FS 180s, but the handle comes around with much less effort when I'm spinning backside. When I pull the handle in a frontside spin, it feels like I'm working against my speed across the wake. Backside feels like I'm working with it. I've got one more day to try them on a proper wake tomorrow and my father will be in town and watching. Hopefully it'll happen. I've put more pain and effort into this trick than I ever thought I would need and I just want it to be over.

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PostPosted: May 01, 2011 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got to ride the biggest wake I've ever seen with a pro rider in the boat today. I tried plenty of BS 360s. On one of them, I made the handle pass and the rotation and put it down wake to wake with the handle still in my hand, but I couldn't ride away from it. I was really excited to watch the video, learn from it, and post it here, but my father was filming and he moved me out of frame just as I was doing it Mad


I then proceeded to go upside down and fall straight down onto the top of my head from about 10 feet up on the next two attempts as a result of using too much line tension.

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PostPosted: May 06, 2011 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, here are two things I noticed from your videos:

1) In the second video, you are cutting in too fast. Make your edge more progressive and you will have a lot more control when you launch off the wake.
2) You initiate the spin too early.

Just remember (as others have stated): Pop, pull, then pass. Make sure you get the pop first (don't rotate right off the wake, wait until you're in the air). Once you get some air, initiate the 360 by pulling it to your back hip. For the handle pass, I highly recommend looking at this:

http://wakeboardingmag.com/how-to/higher-learning-wakeboarding/2010/04/06/how-to-handle-pass-like-a-pro/

Hope this helps! Good luck Very Happy.
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PostPosted: May 13, 2011 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Landed my first heel 3 of the season yesterday. Here's what I did. I started with a ton of w2w hs and ts jumps. Over and over and over w/o grabs. Just focusing on the up and down pop I wanted. Next, I did about 5 hs and ts w2w 180's. I tried to focus on getting some good up and down ts 180's, which landed me on the down side of the wake, and during which I rotated to switch pretty early and had time in the air before I landed. My first attempt at a 3, I focused on just throwing another ts 180, but pulling just a little harder to my back hip with the rope. By thinking about throwing it just like a 180, I was able to stay in control and on axis. I made the handle pass on my first attempt, but I landed a little heel heavy and popped the handle. On my second attempt, I did the exact same thing, but I rode away clean with the handle!!! What helped me tremendously was focusing on just throwing a ts 180 w2w and the feel of that trick, but just with a harder pull on the handle to initiate a faster rotation.

In the past, when trying a hs 3, I'd always throw it too hard, have too much line tension, probably not keep my eyes open, and get pulled off axis. By thinking 180 THEN complete the 3, I had a nice up and down pop, got my self some slack in the line by pulling in a controlled manner on the handle like throwing a 180, but just reaching for the handle only after knowing I had initiated an on axis rotation.

Try this method and see if it helps. To me, I would rather take a fall on a 3 by coming up a little short on rotation and being butt heavy, than being off axis and coming out over the front. Good luck!
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TheHebrewHammer
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PostPosted: May 14, 2011 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today was great. I've been practicing blind 180s all week, and it really paid off. I tried 2 HS FS 360s, and got the same consistent result on both. I was taking a small cut and not really trying to clear the wake or land it, but I popped huge and did the handle pass nice and slow. Both times, I spotted the landing and went for it, but I didn't really have much height left over to work with. I was really surprised to come that close to landing it. I'm feeling really confident now. I'm gonna try it with just a tiny bit more cut and see if I can ride away from one.
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PostPosted: May 15, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I feel like I'm one tip away from landing it. I've gotten it down to where I can pretty consistently do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_qfL_uf2N8&feature=channel_video_title

So I tried to take it a little bigger to give myself more time for the landing, but I fumbled the damned handle pass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF3rZjGNNPo&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

And occasionally, I revert to doing this, which is extremely painful and has already given me a few minor concussions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G57E9e_Krrc&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Why does that last one keep happening? Is the handle too far from my waist? Am I just using too much line tension? I really don't think I can take many more of those hits to the head Sad

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PostPosted: May 15, 2011 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It almost looks like you are trying too hard in the second one, but you are almost there Very Happy. Try not to force the rotation, use your handle pass to do the work for you.

The reason you fell hard in that second video is because that handle was too far away when you did the handle pass. Try and pull it in to the small of your back (so pull towards your hip and then to the small of your back).

I don't know if this will help you, but look at how I rotate without trying too hard:

http://www.youtube.com/user/HOGRampage?feature=mhee#p/a/u/1/g_Fviql7oQQ

Hope you get it, as it is a very fun trick once you get it.
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PostPosted: May 16, 2011 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WhackedRampage wrote:
I don't know if this will help you, but look at how I rotate without trying too hard:

http://www.youtube.com/user/HOGRampage?feature=mhee#p/a/u/1/g_Fviql7oQQ


Wow, your timing is just perfect! I'm still pretty nervous/sketched out about it, so I tend to rush things. I'm pissed that I didn't make it yesterday because I won't be riding again for a few weeks. In the mean time, I'll try to get some practice on the trampoline back home in CT.

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PostPosted: Jun 11, 2011 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I almost made it today! I need one or two more tips to get over the hump (god, I've said that before Crying or Very sad). I've made this nice slow-mo mashup of my six attempts from today:





Watching this film, its seems to me that:

1. I sometimes start spinning too early and don't fully extend my legs to get the pop and mid-air stability I need, especially on attempt #4 (0:35). However, I think I solved this problem well on the last attempt (0:54).

2. The beginning of my rotation is very consistent from attempt to attempt. I always bring the handle to my back and look in the direction of my rotation. Unfortunately, I'm also looking down, which might be contributing to my difficulties.

3. If I had just taken a little more speed into some of these, the added hangtime might've allowed me to set up for a nice landing and the added distance might'be allowed me to use the second wake as a nice downramp. This seems especially true of the last one (0:54).

4. I didn't pop well on the first one, but it was my best attempt of the day in that I put the board down solid. Should I throw this one away? What did I do right in this one?

Thanks as always!

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PostPosted: Jun 11, 2011 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First 360 attempt: You absorbed all of the pop and you started the rotation early.

In the videos where you are nose diving, it looks like you are trying to spin with the board, not with the use of the rope and your body. That is why you are nose diving. Use the rope to guide you through the rotation instead of trying to force it Smile.

Just wait to get the pop before you initiate the 360.

Also, here is something that really helped me land my first 360:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeXmGoyh0AQ
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PostPosted: Jun 25, 2011 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update:

This summer has been great for me. I've learned a tantrum, an HS FS W2W half cab (switch 180), and...A TOE 360! It's not quite what I want because it's only one wake at this point. The W2W HS FS 360 continues to elude me, although I've gotten better by pulling the handle with both hands. Today I almost landed a switch heel 360 and a switch heel BS180. Surprisingly, they felt easier than a regular heel 360. Anyway, I just hope I can take one of these variations wake to wake soon.

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