View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 12:21 pm Post subject: I guess we better all boycott... |
|
|
Quote: | Popular chicken chain under fire for anti-gay marriage donations
By Liz Goodwin
Fans of the addictive sandwiches of Chick-fil-A who also support gay marriage are facing a dilemma: Should one follow the dictates of the stomach or the conscience?
The privately owned chain, famous for closing on Sundays in deference to its founder's evangelical Christian values, donates to many Christian causes, scholarships, and organizations through its charitable arm.
But when a Harrisburg, Penn.,restaurant donated sandwiches and brownies to a meeting of The Pennsylvania Family Group, a group that works to outlaw gay marriage, pro-gay marriage bloggers and gay rights organizations went on the offensive. The news quickly trickled into the mainstream. Celebrity blogger Perez Hilton wrote about it, and so did the food blog Grub Street, with the headline "Chick-fil-A is anti-gay."
President Dan Cathy posted a video response to the company's Facebook page in early January, no doubt hoping to quell the controversy. "Chick-fil-A serves all people and values all people," Cathy said, adding that the donation did not serve as a political endorsement.
Thousands of people chimed in on Chick-fil-A's Facebook page, many of whom said they would support the chain even more because of the donation and the controversy around it.
"You have nothing to expain to your customers, we support your family values, and know that you mean no ill-will to those with other opinions," John Joyner wrote.
Others wrote that they would give up their favorite chicken with heavy hearts.
"I've eaten and loved chick all my life. I am sad that me and my entire family must denounce the Chick until you publicly apologize and make an equal and opposite donation to the Human Rights Campaign or other civil rights group," Rob Augino commented.
Some people wrestling between their stomachs and their beliefs painted their sacrifice in grandiose terms. "Never again will I enjoy your spicy chicken sandwich," writes one morose former fan on Twitter.
It's unclear how many people actually intend to shun the Georgia-based chain on the basis of its opposition to gay marriage--and what impact a consumer boycott will have on the company's bottom line. So far, students at Indiana University South Bend got the chain booted from campus, according to a post on Change.org, which hosts petitions against the chicken restaurant.
The company's anti-gay marriage donations go beyond the alliance in Pennsylvania. The WinShape Foundation, the company's charitable institution, and the Cathy family have donated millions to Christian organizations and causes, including some that campaign against gay marriage, The New York Times writes. A couples retreat operated by WinShape does not accept homosexual couples, according to the blog Good As You.
Other businesses have found themselves the center of controversy for wading into political debates. Target and Best Buy were boycotted this summer after they made donations to Minnesota gubernatorial candidate Tom Emmer, who does not support gay rights. Target apologized for the donations.
(Chick-fil-A founder Truett Cathy: AP.) |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110131/us_yblog_thelookout/popular-chicken-chain-under-fire-for-anti-gay-marriage-donations _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
GnarShredd Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 16 Jun 2009 Posts: 2310 City: St Pete.
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 1:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Meh, Chic-Fil-A was making me fat anyway.
also. RABLERABLERABLE RABLERABLE RABLE RABLERABLE RABLE!!!!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nmballa Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Posts: 3906 City: Milwaukee
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I boycott cause their food sucks... _________________ jt09 wrote:
I used to get all happy when the girlie would make a colonic appointment. That meant she was going to be breaking out the "fine china" soon.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509037985&ref=profile |
|
Back to top |
|
|
swift6six Criminal
Joined: 02 Nov 2010 Posts: 74 City: Boise
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I say good for them. They believe in something and are willing to take a stand on it. Wish more people would do the same. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
J-Ro PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 5662 City: Rocklin
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
America is nothing but hypocrites.
People are stupid.
That is all _________________ Steal My Book
Read My Blog
RIP Leggester |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nauty Addict
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 827 City: Lake Dallas
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 2:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
swift6six wrote: | I say good for them. They believe in something and are willing to take a stand on it. Wish more people would do the same. |
Agreed! _________________ "I'm not a professional wakeboarder, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night". |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jryoung Ladies Man
Joined: 19 Mar 2004 Posts: 7664 City: Man Jose
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 3:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So if I eat chick fil a regurlarly does that mean I wont catch the gay? _________________
Quote: | You don't meet many old vegans. It's mostly young priviliged kids trying to figure out where they stand in the world. | - Steve Rinella |
|
Back to top |
|
|
microman PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 5377
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That must be why they stopped sponsoring a tournament on the LPGA tour.
Bigotry doesn't seem like a good business strategy to me unless all your customers are rednecks. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
savage3221 Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 17 May 2004 Posts: 3856 City: Austin, TX
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 3:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
swift6six wrote: | I say good for them. They believe in something and are willing to take a stand on it. Wish more people would do the same. |
I think that in the scenario of standing for a belief that prevents others from taking a stand on their own beliefs there is something wrong there.
Homosexual relationships don't affect straight people in any way that is more important than a gay person's right to stand up for their life. _________________ Keep Austin Weird |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jryoung Ladies Man
Joined: 19 Mar 2004 Posts: 7664 City: Man Jose
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 3:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
savage3221 wrote: | swift6six wrote: | I say good for them. They believe in something and are willing to take a stand on it. Wish more people would do the same. |
I think that in the scenario of standing for a belief that prevents others from taking a stand on their own beliefs there is something wrong there.
Homosexual relationships don't affect straight people in any way that is more important than a gay person's right to stand up for their life. |
It effects the sanctity of marriage, a 51% divorce rate can't be wrong, think of the children. _________________
Quote: | You don't meet many old vegans. It's mostly young priviliged kids trying to figure out where they stand in the world. | - Steve Rinella |
|
Back to top |
|
|
arof Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 2918 City: Toronto
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 6:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Is anyone really that surprised?
I would have worked under the assumption that they didn't support homosexuality from the start. _________________ Impossible is not a a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing.
-adidas |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jt09 Ladies Man
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 7:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
arof wrote: | Is anyone really that surprised?
I would have worked under the assumption that they didn't support homosexuality from the start. |
no kidding. closed on sundays when i'm hungover and really want a fried chicken sammich w/ extra pickles and a lemonade and they're all at church. not surprising one bit.
good for chic-fil-a. you want to stand for something, go right ahead - that's your right. good for the protesters. you don't want to support a corporation that opposes your views? go for it. eat less chikn. exercise your rights! be americans! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
NKCrider Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Posts: 2644 City: NKC
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 7:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I dont understand the fasination with an $8 chicken sandwich when i can go get 2 double cheeseburgers and a med. drink from BK fer ~$4
But good for them in standing their ground _________________ Lanexa VA |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jt09 Ladies Man
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
$8?? do what? $2.89 for a chicken sammich and cfa has more coupons out there than freakin arby's. if you can't eat cheap at cfa, you are doing it wrong. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
NKCrider Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Posts: 2644 City: NKC
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 8:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dude, out here its like $7.xx for a cfa meal _________________ Lanexa VA |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wakebrad Ladies Man
Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 12257 City: Dallas
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 8:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | RABLERABLERABLE RABLERABLE RABLE RABLERABLE RABLE!!!!! |
Love me some Chick-Fil-A. Ate there for dinner tonight. The waffle fries are the BEST.
Why is everyone surprised that the blatantly Christian restaurant chain goes by values espoused in the Bible, which include anti-gay verses? And they didn't even come out and say anything about it, they just gave some free goodies to a group who asked them.
Then microman chimes in with the "bigot" term, like it's the race card. Grow up.
I'm glad people will boycott them, more for me. The drive-thru lines are ridic. _________________ You have just entered the twilight zone. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
microman PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 5377
|
Posted: Jan 31, 2011 8:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wakebrad wrote: |
Then microman chimes in with the "bigot" term, like it's the race card. Grow up.
|
Wanting to deny a group of people the right to marry is nothing to be commended. Hiding behind religion never makes it acceptable and homophobia is most certainly a form of bigotry. Today, if this was interracial marriage they were opposing most people would be appalled.
Nonetheless, they obviously have the right to support anti-gay groups, it just doesn't make sense from a business standpoint to openly do so. It seems they've realized that judging from the "update" in the above story. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 6:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
The whole thing just seems ridiculous to me. If someone has a certain belief and wants to stand by it, what is wrong with that. If society around them thinks differently, should they alter their view or belief?
I hope they don't cave to the PC crowd. You can disagree with what they support or call them names...even boycott if that's what you feel you should do. I'm not a big fan of the whole boycotting thing, but it's each person's choice, I guess.
So, MM, would you boycott them solely because of this? Do you or would you boycott all businesses that support Christian ideals and support groups that promote Biblical family values and don't support gay marriage, etc? _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wakebrad Ladies Man
Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 12257 City: Dallas
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 9:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | Wanting to deny a group of people the right to marry is nothing to be commended. Hiding behind religion never makes it acceptable and homophobia is most certainly a form of bigotry. Today, if this was interracial marriage they were opposing most people would be appalled. |
You know there's a difference between bigotry and opinions on policy differences? Have you never met someone who was a reasonable person, that didn't hate gay people, but thought marriage should continue to be traditionally defined as between a man and a women?
Your statements are more bigoted than what we've seen in this article. It's clear that you have disdain for conservative Christians. _________________ You have just entered the twilight zone. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
J-Ro PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 5662 City: Rocklin
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 10:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: |
The whole thing just seems ridiculous to me. If someone has a certain belief and wants to stand by it, what is wrong with that. If society around them thinks differently, should they alter their view or belief?
|
These protesters, and most of "Outraged" people, respect your opinion as long as it agrees with theirs.
POOP _________________ Steal My Book
Read My Blog
RIP Leggester |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 10:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
Isn't that the liberal definition of tolerance? I think they also consider that the definition of bi-partisan. As long as you bow to their desires your tolerant and reasonable...otherwise you intolerant, bigots, etc.? _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
microman PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 5377
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 10:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Okie Boarder wrote: | The whole thing just seems ridiculous to me. If someone has a certain belief and wants to stand by it, what is wrong with that. If society around them thinks differently, should they alter their view or belief? |
No one is impeding their ability to voice their opinion. They are supporting groups which promote and lobby for inequality and many people understandably would rather their money not go to a company that uses their profits in that way. They are free to continue to do so at, but at the potential loss of revenue.
This isn't about being "PC", standing up for another groups rights should never be characterized as such.
The so-called "family values" and "Christian values" crowd shouldn't be let off the hook because of a narrow intrepretation of an old book. 50 years ago this company would've been using these same "Christian values" to keep marriage between two people of the same race. If you have problems with this parallel it's only because of the way public opinion has shifted on the issue, not because it is not a valid comparison.
Okie Boarder wrote: |
So, MM, would you boycott them solely because of this? Do you or would you boycott all businesses that support Christian ideals and support groups that promote Biblical family values and don't support gay marriage, etc? |
I won't support any business that promotes any of this nonsense. Like I said though, most businesses are smart enough to keep themselves neutral at worst.
Wakebrad wrote: |
You know there's a difference between bigotry and opinions on policy differences? Have you never met someone who was a reasonable person, that didn't hate gay people, but thought marriage should continue to be traditionally defined as between a man and a women?
|
I don't see how a person can emphatically state that they're not anti-gay but at the same time not realize that the gay marriage issue is one of equality. It doesn't mean they are a bad person, I believe they truly don't understand the impact their position has on others.
You're right, I do have a problem with the "social conservative" movement because on too many issues it is about taking away the rights of others in order to get everyone else to conform with them. Making gay marriage legal for example, clearly takes away no rights away from any Christian, yet the opposite is not true for the gay couple.
In fact, Christians in NA have had no rights taken away from them yet they often behave as though they are a persecuted minority. The only thing that has changed is their ability to use public institutions to proselytize and they don't like tha |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nmballa Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Posts: 3906 City: Milwaukee
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
dirtysparks Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 07 Jul 2004 Posts: 2428
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 11:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
is this really an 'anti-gay marriage donation'? They delivered some sammiches and brownies to a christian organization. Aren't most christian organizations anti-gay?
Quote: | have donated millions to Christian organizations and causes, including some that campaign against gay marriage |
Guilty by association I guess, they probably just needed a tax writeoff. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nor*Cal Ladies Man
Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Eliminate the word marriage in statute, problem solved. If they want to be married then go to a church. Otherwise it's just a contract.
But the LGBTQ community and the families values community will all disagree with me on that, despite it being a proper solution that doesn't step on anyones rights. _________________ If I agreed with you we would both be wrong. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jryoung Ladies Man
Joined: 19 Mar 2004 Posts: 7664 City: Man Jose
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 12:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Logic has no place in politics. Can you imagine the chit storm im someone legitimately proposed that. _________________
Quote: | You don't meet many old vegans. It's mostly young priviliged kids trying to figure out where they stand in the world. | - Steve Rinella |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 12:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Nor*Cal, yup.
I think more from the family values side would agree than from the LGBT side. Seems every time it is discussed, it boils down to trying to redefine "marriage" rather than to establish something that provides all the exact rights but has a different name.
What's wrong with fighting against redefining something or standing up for that? I would bet nearly all of us, probably even MM would stand up for that in various aspects of our lives.
The bottom line with Chik-Fil-A in my mind is that they provide support to the things they believe in. If you want to protest that, so be it. There are many businesses out there that support things that most of us strongly disagree with and feel takes away others rights. We should decide in our own lives if it matters enough to us to not support that business. Why does it need to be made such a big deal of? _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nor*Cal Ladies Man
Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 12:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
jryoung, I'm reminded of that daily but am paid to push logic on behalf of my clients in a legislature and bureaucracy who lends their ear to activists first and logic last.
Easy solution to most of our problems is to simply eliminate the governments role or law governing the issue and the solution will be achieved on its own. _________________ If I agreed with you we would both be wrong. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wakebrad Ladies Man
Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 12257 City: Dallas
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 12:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | I don't see how a person can emphatically state that they're not anti-gay but at the same time not realize that the gay marriage issue is one of equality. It doesn't mean they are a bad person, I believe they truly don't understand the impact their position has on others. |
So I'll take that as a no. You don't have contact with any social conservatives who are reasonable people, except maybe this site where you can stamp "Bigot" in place of their user-name, in which case you wouldn't know.
Lets say you have a friend who gets into the bad drugs, you don't hate that person, you think they're making a bad choice. You are still their friend but you don't agree with every decision they make. The Bible preaches that homosexuality is wrong, emphatically, in the old and new testaments. It doesn't preach that you're supposed to hate or ostracize them, just like Jesus didn't ostracize prostitutes.
"Gay-marriage" isn't about equal rights, it's about sticking it to the people who believe it's a sin. If it was about equal rights, a civil union would suffice. But they take a term rooted in religion, and Christianity in this country, and turn it against them.
As for the comparison to interracial couples, it's not the same. There is nothing in the Bible that talks about that being a sin. In fact if anything the Bible talks about being blind to race, specifically see the good Samaritan. If people used the Bible to support that view, they were in the wrong.
I know a ton of people who are far more kind, and empathetic than I am, who think homosexuality is a sin, and don't agree with gay marriage. Standing against gay marriage doesn't make someone a bigot. _________________ You have just entered the twilight zone. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
arof Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 2918 City: Toronto
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wakebrad just said what I wanted to but in a much more clear manner.
Star. _________________ Impossible is not a a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing.
-adidas |
|
Back to top |
|
|
microman PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 5377
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wakebrad wrote: |
Lets say you have a friend who gets into the bad drugs, you don't hate that person, you think they're making a bad choice. You are still their friend but you don't agree with every decision they make. The Bible preaches that homosexuality is wrong, emphatically, in the old and new testaments. It doesn't preach that you're supposed to hate or ostracize them, just like Jesus didn't ostracize prostitutes. |
Homosexuality isn't a choice, it's a sexual orientation. It is something you *are* not something you do. Outside of religion it is categorized as such.
Unlike drug use, homosexuality is not detrimetal or harmful. By telling people that you think that who they are is "sinful", one can imagine the kind of impact that would have on a person.
Wakebrad wrote: |
"Gay-marriage" isn't about equal rights, it's about sticking it to the people who believe it's a sin. If it was about equal rights, a civil union would suffice. But they take a term rooted in religion, and Christianity in this country, and turn it against them. |
Marriage isn't an invention of Christianity nor is it a Christian institution. Marriage is essentially a legal issue and civil union implies something less than marriage. The easiest solution is to allow gay marriage, because then nothing needs to be redefined or altered. If religious instutions don't want to perform cermonies they don't have to, the same way they aren't forced to marry anyone now.
Is your marriage somehow devalued or affected in any way because gays can marry? Or if atheists marry?
Wakebrad wrote: |
As for the comparison to interracial couples, it's not the same. There is nothing in the Bible that talks about that being a sin. In fact if anything the Bible talks about being blind to race, specifically see the good Samaritan. If people used the Bible to support that view, they were in the wrong. |
There is also very little in the Bible about homosexuality, yet it has long been a subject of much focus by the church. It's all about intrepretation. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nor*Cal Ladies Man
Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
microman wrote: | Marriage is essentially a legal issue and civil union implies something less than marriage. |
Not in Ca, equal to in all but name. And yet the citizens have voted several times to deny that name. Your position is one that does not rest well with the majority whereas my solution is hard to argue against. I win game over, consider me the savior of equal rights in this forum and move on... _________________ If I agreed with you we would both be wrong. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
microman PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 5377
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 1:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Nor*Cal wrote: |
Not in Ca, equal to in all but name. And yet the citizens have voted several times to deny that name. Your position is one that does not rest well with the majority whereas my solution is hard to argue against. . |
That majority will change in a few more years, not that the majority should be deciding rights for minorities in the first place. Equal rights shouldn't be concerned with the comfort level of the majority on said issue.
Introducing another term and legal arragment only makes things needlessly complicated.
Gay marriage has been legal in Canada for nearly 6 years and amazingly most people have learned to accept it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JV Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 3881 City: San Diego
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
microman wrote: |
That majority will change in a few more years, not that the majority should be deciding rights for minorities in the first place. Equal rights shouldn't be concerned with the comfort level of the majority on said issue. |
Can someone remind me what the word democracy means again? _________________ "I'm scared if I stop drinking all at once, the cumulative hangover will literally kill me." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nor*Cal Ladies Man
Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac
|
Posted: Feb 01, 2011 2:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
microman, The majority didn't change in the 8 years between propositions in one of the most liberal states in our union. And my proposal actually eliminates a term despite your assertion to the contrary. Civil Union is a term that is used throughout CA statute. You obviously did not clearly understand what I said when I alluded to it previously. IN CALIFORNIA CIVIL UNIONS ENJOY ALL THE SAME RIGHTS AS MARRIAGES. Is that more understandable?
You really don't know much about the political reality of this state or country, just what you assume after some narrow reading which probably lends to your hubris.
And just as there is tyranny of the majority there can be tyranny of the minority. I don't think this issue is one of tyranny but rather one of a vocal and wealthy minority who enjoys equal rights in my state.
Elton John wrote: | “I don’t want to be married. I’m very happy with a civil partnership. If gay people want to get married, or get together, they should have a civil partnership…You get the same equal rights that we do when we have a civil partnership. Heterosexual people get married. We can have civil partnerships.” |
_________________ If I agreed with you we would both be wrong. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|