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Faust
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 Posted: Oct 05, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: This should spark a debate |
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20101005/pl_yblog_upshot/rural-tennessee-fire-sparks-conservative-ideological-debate
| Quote: | Here's the short version of what happened: In rural Obion County, homeowners must pay $75 annually for fire protection services from the nearby city of South Fulton. If they don't pay the fee and their home catches fire, tough luck -- even if firefighters are positioned just outside the home with hoses at the ready.
Gene Cranick found this out the hard way.
When Cranick's house caught fire last week, and he couldn't contain the blaze with garden hoses, he called 911. During the emergency call, he offered to pay all expenses related to the Fire Department's defense of his home, but the South Fulton firefighters refused to do anything.
They did, however, come out when Cranick's neighbor -- who'd already paid the fee -- called 911 because he worried that the fire might spread to his property. Once they arrived, members of the South Fulton department stood by and watched Cranick's home burn; they sprang into action only when the fire reached the neighbor's property.
"I hadn't paid my $75 and that's what they want, $75, and they don't care how much it burned down," Gene Cranick told WPSD, an NBC affiliate in Kentucky. "I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong." |
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Faust
Wakeboarder.Commie
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| And what if the neighbor's house had burned down, and it could have been prevented if the firefighters stepped into action on the 'non-payer's' house? |
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Nor*Cal
Ladies Man
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
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City: Sac
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hope he paid his insurance...
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DRAGON88
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Joined: 12 Jan 2003
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City: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Faust, say they let this guy pay his $75 at the time of the dispatch.
Why would anyone pay the $75 fee when they know that all they need to do is wait for a fire to happen. It sucks for him, but if they just let people pay $75 when they needed help there would be zero reason to actually pay in advance.
Would there be as much outrage if this guy crashed his car into a telephone pole and then called an insurance co. to go buy insurance so he could get his car fixed?
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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I've kind of grown fond of "pay for use" services. In a way I like this idea. What if all the services we enjoy could be pay for use? For example, what if a couple decided not to have kids, so they didn't have to pay for the education system. But, everyone that has kids pays a tax or fee or sends the kids to private school. This idea could be extended to a whole host of services that many of us pay for, but never use.
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bjeremi
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City: Owasso
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| dragon88 -- DING DING DING you are correct! |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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DRAGON88, good analogy. I would agree with that, as well.
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Faust
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Something tells me the insurance company will find a way out of this one...
First of all, I think it is awesome that this happened. So I am playing devil's advocate here...
It isn't the greatest analogy because the firefighters were standing right there with the means to prevent it. Moral obligation comes into effect. If you were standing outside of someone else's house, whether you knew them or not, and the house was burning, and you had some water... would you just stand outside of it and hold the water because they were indebted to you?
I do really like the idea of everything being pay for use... but at the same time, everything is linked together. Eg: If you don't pay for the education system, down the line it will affect you in one way or another. |
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Nor*Cal
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City: Sac
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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The story doesn't tell us if there was anything to be saved when the FD arrived on scene. If coming from a neighboring town perhaps not???
Pay for use is absurd. Certain programs have societal benefits that go far beyond what you see. Education is one of them. However, local school boards, state and federal governments owe it to the citizens, their electorate, to provide you the biggest bang for your buck.
Fire departments and police departments certainly don't belong in this category nor does the military.
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Neognosis
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Joined: 13 Jan 2003
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City: Webster
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | For example, what if a couple decided not to have kids, so they didn't have to pay for the education system. |
Great idea! So we can all raise generations and generations of idiots and the whole society can be rapidly surpassed by other countries who value education and educate, to some level, their entire population.
Why, you don't need a well educated populace for democracy to work!
Best Idea I've heard on this forum yet.
| Quote: | | Pay for use is absurd. Certain programs have societal benefits that go far beyond what you see. Education is one of them. |
thank god.
What kind of a moronic township doesn't have a tax to pay for services like their fire department, if they don't have a volunteer service?
Fire dept is for the common good. If you decide to let one person's house burn down... holy crap, this is just one of the most moronic things I've heard in a while. Did this happen in the south... checking...of course, F'ing Kentucky. Same state that has creationism as part of the science curriculum...
Toxic smoke, unknown people inside dying, fire spreading, massive pollution, neighborhood property values drop, come on... Kentucky... there's a reason people think you are a bunch of backwards yokels. Home of the Creationism Museum, and a whole gaggle of morons.
No offense to you if you live in kentucky and are not a moron. But chances are...
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Faust
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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This was Tennessee.
moron |
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EMP912
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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In our county we have a $125 yearly fee for fire coverage. If you do not pay it and they have to come out, they charge $2000 for every truck that comes to your house.
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bjeremi
Soul Rider
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
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City: Owasso
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Hmm, I guess thats a decent idea as well EMP912 |
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brew
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Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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City: Jackson
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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This is one of those times that I agree with cameraboy. It seems ludicrous to me that we are even debating whether the fire department should have put out his fire or not.
Are we going to group police into the same category? |
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TnR6Rida
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City: West TN
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Faust wrote: | This was Tennessee.
moron |
I live like 10 minutes from there. |
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DRAGON88
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Joined: 12 Jan 2003
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City: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Oct 05, 2010 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| brew wrote: | This is one of those times that I agree with cameraboy. It seems ludicrous to me that we are even debating whether the fire department should have put out his fire or not.
Are we going to group police into the same category? |
Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all saying that I like the 'pay for use' model. I fully agree that things like, police, Firefighters/EMT, military, schools, etc. fall under the category of a shared public good.
But my understanding, and someone please correct me if I've misunderstood on this point, is that the city passed an ordinance blocking firefighters from acting outside of the city limits due to budgetary reasons. The $75 "insurance" fee was a way for the city fire department to expand its reach. I think the system is flawed in the way it's set up no doubt, but as I said earlier it insurance would cease to exist if people only paid into it when they needed it.
| EMP912 wrote: | | In our county we have a $125 yearly fee for fire coverage. If you do not pay it and they have to come out, they charge $2000 for every truck that comes to your house. |
That seems to me to be a much more reasonable model. Insurance up front, or pay out the nose but still receive service.
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goofyboy
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| EMP912 wrote: | | In our county we have a $125 yearly fee for fire coverage. If you do not pay it and they have to come out, they charge $2000 for every truck that comes to your house. |
This is the correct answer. This gets rid of the possibility of you losing your home to a fire and your pets to that fire AND keeping the town from looking like pricks.
Cameraboy - they were outside the township and did not pay taxes to that town, from what i read, so the fee was put in place.
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Lop
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| cameraboy wrote: |
What kind of a moronic township doesn't have a tax to pay for services like their fire department, if they don't have a volunteer service? |
Alot of rural fire departsments have so few people living in them that the tax for the firefighters doesn't cover crap. Another scenario, my uncle lives outside of the fire department's district so he is not taxed for the department, however so he gets services from them if needed he has to pay a annual fee.
Both of these situations are fair in my book, however I would be pissed if they just watched my house burn because I didn't pay their annual fee.
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Okie Boarder
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Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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City: Edmond
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| cameraboy wrote: | | Quote: | | For example, what if a couple decided not to have kids, so they didn't have to pay for the education system. |
Great idea! So we can all raise generations and generations of idiots and the whole society can be rapidly surpassed by other countries who value education and educate, to some level, their entire population.
Why, you don't need a well educated populace for democracy to work!
Best Idea I've heard on this forum yet. |
How are you coming to the conclusion that a pay for use educational system would produce uneducated people?
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vette74
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Okie,
I think what he is trying to say is that the people who don't pay would produce uneducated people. What happens if Tonesha from the hood decides to not pay for her own 9 kids then what?
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OperationROL
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 6:24 am Post subject: |
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I like this model alot. If you don't pay in advance, you get charged like crazy, but you still get the services. I would like it even more if they increased the fees based on how many year you did not pay. Then every once in a while they could have an amnesty day to give folks a chance to get current. I like this model.
| EMP912 wrote: | | In our county we have a $125 yearly fee for fire coverage. If you do not pay it and they have to come out, they charge $2000 for every truck that comes to your house. |
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E.J.
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City: Mogadishu
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 6:39 am Post subject: |
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If you are out of the normal area, but want the service....you pay. If you don't, your trailer burns to the ground...
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.... WTF is it that this Country doesn't understand about the fact that you have to make decisions and live by them. It is always someone elses fault....
Choose not to pay for something....don't bitch when you don't get it.... Pay for something, expect to get the service.... Done deal.... |
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Zach M
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 6:55 am Post subject: |
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This quote sums it up...
"I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong."
Live and learn. He was trying to get away with not paying the required fees and got burned... literally |
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Neognosis
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City: Webster
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 7:10 am Post subject: |
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How are you coming to the conclusion that a pay for use educational system would produce uneducated people?
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Becasue if fewer people pay into the public system through education taxes, that system becomes even worsely underfunded and then you end up with a large group of poorly educated people. Even the founding fathers knew that democracy can not survive without a well educated populace. By not funding the education of other people's kids (if you have none of your own) you are shooting yourself, and the entire society, in the foot. Do you want to live in a well educated society, or a society of idiots? We are already failing in education, let's not make it worse.
When I had no kids, I still paid school taxes, and I was glad to do it. Why? Becasue it is in my best interest that my neighbor's kid gets an education, gets a good job, pays taxes into the infrastructure that I use. As opposed to them not getting a good education, their potential job going offshore to a society where they do get a better education, and my neighbor's kid working at taco bell into their 30's, then deciding it would be easier to make some money by robbing my house. Also, uneducated people can't make intelligent decisions when it comes to electing officials. As should be obvious.
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pet575
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Faust wrote: | | Something tells me the insurance company will find a way out of this one... |
Without a doubt. They will probably argue that he didn't take every reasonable step to protect his property from destruction by fire, specifically, by paying a mere $75 for the fire department's services. They will probably analogize it to him refusing to call the fire department and just watching it burn.
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Faust
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Exactly, but the one thing that might save him is the publicity surrounding this... the insurance company's reputation could go up in flames if they handle this incorrectly. |
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microman
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| This sounds like a libertarian's wet dream. It also demonstrates why a libertarian philosophy applied to public services doesn't work. These kinds of services should be paid through taxes not voluntary "fees", because we all know some people will risk not paying the fee. In the end the societal costs associated with letting a man's house burn down are going to be greater than putting the fire out. |
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boardordie
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| microman wrote: | | These kinds of services should be paid through taxes not voluntary "fees", because we all know some people will risk not paying the fee. |
Um... What? So because this person was irresponsible and didn't pony up $75 it's the rest of societies responsibility to make sure he's helping himself? How much would you like to bet there's a $75 a month cable television bill in his mailbox each month... not year... month from DirectTV or Dish?
Car insurance is mandatory in Ohio to drive. Should that now be taken out in taxes since plenty of people still drive uninsured?
It does amaze me though how so many responsible people figure out they need to contact an insurance agent and pay their premiums each month without the gooberment taking it out in taxes. |
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Okie Boarder
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City: Edmond
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| cameraboy wrote: | | Quote: |
How are you coming to the conclusion that a pay for use educational system would produce uneducated people?
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Becasue if fewer people pay into the public system through education taxes, that system becomes even worsely underfunded and then you end up with a large group of poorly educated people. |
I disagree.
$100 x 10,000 people = $1,000,000
$200 x 5,000 people = $1,000,000
Is the above incorrect?
| microman wrote: | | These kinds of services should be paid through taxes not voluntary "fees", because we all know some people will risk not paying the fee. |
I agree with you on this part. Eventhough I like the pay for use type scenario, I don't think it should be voluntary.
Regarding education, less people paying in will make it more expensive to those that have kids and need them educated. But, it also leaves that person with an individual choice that they are completely responsible for. I think it could have a positive result with respect to personal responsibility and also personal liberty.
Hypothetically, let's say we charge $500 per year per child for their education. If a person knows that going in, maybe they would choose not to have 9 kids when they only make a mediocre income.
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Faust
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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^ This is a dangerous path to go down. What happens when you need a lawyer or doctor or engineer, and they refuse to help you because you never had any children and paid for education?
| Quote: |
It does amaze me though how so many responsible people figure out they need to contact an insurance agent and pay their premiums each month without the gooberment taking it out in taxes.
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1. Insurance is much easier to do than taxes.
2. I would assume the percentage of people who pay insurance is really small compared to the total population. |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Faust wrote: | | ^ This is a dangerous path to go down. What happens when you need a lawyer or doctor or engineer, and they refuse to help you because you never had any children and paid for education? |
Wait, what?
How would me not having children and subsequently not paying for their education have anything to do with whether a lawyer, doctor or engineer would provide their services to me?
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Faust
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Joined: 20 May 2005
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Wait, what?
How would me not wanting the services of firefighters from another county and subsequently not paying for their annual fee have anything to do with whether they would provide their services to me? |
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BrentC5Z
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Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 1436
City: Tulsa
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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Okie Boarder, They have educations. You did not contribute to that.
BTW, if your house starts to burn, let it. Much better to start from scratch with a total loss than fight over every single item that can be cleaned or refurbished.
Fireproof safe FTW
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microman
PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 5377
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| boardordie wrote: |
Um... What? So because this person was irresponsible and didn't pony up $75 it's the rest of societies responsibility to make sure he's helping himself? How much would you like to bet there's a $75 a month cable television bill in his mailbox each month... not year... month from DirectTV or Dish?
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Some services should be considered essential. Most would probably agree that police and fire service falls under that umbrella. Now society will likely have to shoulder the costs anyway as a result of the man's house burning down. If you tax people for fire services like just about everywhere else in the Western world, you don't have to worry about this.
In this particular case, I'm pretty sure that although he may have lived outside the city's jurisdiction and they couldn't tax him, he didn't live in "no man's land" and some municipal government had the authority to levy a tax for fire services.
| Okie Boarder wrote: |
Regarding education, less people paying in will make it more expensive to those that have kids and need them educated. But, it also leaves that person with an individual choice that they are completely responsible for. I think it could have a positive result with respect to personal responsibility and also personal liberty.
Hypothetically, let's say we charge $500 per year per child for their education. If a person knows that going in, maybe they would choose not to have 9 kids when they only make a mediocre income. |
Wouldn't that necessitate more abortions, which I assume you would be against? But I digress. You would create a plutocracy where social mobility grinds to a halt. Essentially, that is what many developing countries tend to look like.
Last edited by microman on Oct 06, 2010 1:01 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Okie Boarder
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Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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City: Edmond
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| Posted: Oct 06, 2010 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Faust,
You're making no sense to me.
If I want a lawyer, I pay for the service. Otherwise they won't provide me the service. If I want the firefighter service from the other county, I'll pay for it. Otherwise, I won't receive it. How does that have anything to do with my choice of having children and paying their education.
Brent87LT1, I understand your point. Why would I need to contribute to their education? I'll be doing plenty of contributing when they send me their bill, dontchya think?
So, what if I flipped that around and say let's pay for everyone's education completely and pay for all the services people would ever need, through taxation. Then, could everything be free except for the taxes I pay? Free health care, free fire protection, free police protection, free engineering consultation, free legal representation, free car repair, etc? Why don't we just do that and live in utopia where everybody has everything just the same as everyone else.
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