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Why doesn't Perfect Pass work with the Mercruiser 3.0?

 
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taitrt
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PostPosted: Jun 14, 2009 11:42 am    Post subject: Why doesn't Perfect Pass work with the Mercruiser 3.0? Reply with quote

From the PP Website:
Quote:
PerfectPass Wake Edition is available for most stern drives using the following engines.

Mercruiser 4.3L, 5.0L, 5.7L & 6.2L (Fuel injected or carburetor)


I can't figure out why PP would work on a 4.3L, but not on the 3.0L. It seems like the concept would be exactly the same. Perhaps they are concerned with overloading the engine trying to find the right speed (due to low HP). It seems that a low pitch prop would negate those issues.

Has anyone done a PP install on a 3.0L? Can anyone who has done an install on another sterndrive (I/O) engine think of a reason why it wouldn't work on a 3.0L?
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PostPosted: Jun 14, 2009 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is that the throttle assembly is different and they don't have it set up to work with that particular one. The other guess might be that they've tested it out and found it can't hold speed accurately due to lack of HP. Like you said, though, you would think that the right prop would sort that problem out pretty easily. Have you talked to anyone up there about it? Is Mercury SmartTow an option on a 3.0?
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PostPosted: Jun 15, 2009 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im sorry, its a 3.0. Why even worry about it? If you were worried about getting a good pull, you wouldn't have a 3.0.

I suspect, depending on the year, it could be that the other Engines have a Digital Throttle system designed into them for the Mercury Smart Craft System, Potentially they never use this on the 3.0L, so making an assembly for it would be a whole new design, and not many people who would only spend enough to get a 3.0L is goign to pony up the money to get a Perfect Pass Set Up either... meaning they wouldn't get their money back on the investment.

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taitrt
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PostPosted: Jun 15, 2009 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyle f wrote:
Im sorry, its a 3.0. Why even worry about it? If you were worried about getting a good pull, you wouldn't have a 3.0.


Okay, I'll bite... why exactly does a higher HP engine mean a better pull?

I understand that you can't sack a boat out with 3000lbs with a 3.0L, but 135hp is more than enough to pull a rider and a few friends in a 18' bowrider. Higher hp (actually higher torque, not horsepower) will also dictate more speed control meaning you won't have to move the throttle as much to maintain a constant speed. However, the point of a perfect pass is to allow for the automation of speed control, meaning it will be of more use to someone with a 3.0L than someone with a big beefy 5.7L.

I am interested in a PP because I like to go out with friends who aren't always the most experienced drivers. This basically translates into them getting consistent speeds while I am driving, and my pull being less than ideal.

As to the reason you suggested, I'm not positive, but I think it would be a little odd for a carbureted engine to have a digital throttle system.
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taitrt
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PostPosted: Jun 15, 2009 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI, I did a little searching and found this thread:

http://forums.wakeboarder.com/viewtopic.php?t=78143

Now I just need to find some pictures and a thumbs up that it does indeed work.
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PostPosted: Jun 15, 2009 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

taitrt wrote:


Okay, I'll bite... why exactly does a higher HP engine mean a better pull?


taitrt wrote:
I understand that you can't sack a boat out with 3000lbs with a 3.0L


Well that pretty much sums it up there. A boat made to plow water and make a fat wake is not going to do well with a 3.0. Plus asking someone, or somethign in this case to make big throttle adjustments is not going to make for a smooth pull.

Im not too familiar with the options if any on a 3.0, so I didn't know they never made them fuel injected. The 4.3 is offered both ways now. To me, with cars trucks, boats.. etc You never know when you have enough power until you don;t have enough. Higher Powered options of all always hold more value in the end for being more versitile. Plus, when driven with common sense the bigger engine often times gets better avg fuel economy, withing reason. As say comparing a 4.3 in a Full Size Chevy vs a 350 Vortec.

Same thign with a lot of 3.0L 18-19' Bow Riders. The added Torque/HP allows you to run a higher prop and turn a less RPM at less throttle and cover more distance. However, if oyu are hammering on it and runnign WOT... well bigger engines can burn more fuel.

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taitrt
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PostPosted: Jun 16, 2009 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh, if your point is that you can't sack the boat out with 3000lbs then your issue is more with the wake than the pull. In that particular case you should just say "don't put PP on an I/O" since they will always have inferior wakes.

For my skill level my boat throws a perfectly healthy wake, 2-3 people in the boat +600lbs of ballast and it's plenty rampy and firm. I would install a PP to increase my enjoyment, not necessarily my wakeboarding skill.

Also, fuel economy is a strange thing... but you'd be hard pressed to find a V8 that will burn less gas than a 3.0L I4 with almost any prop configuration. I wakeboard between 19-21mph, which is about 2500rpm with my current prop (21 pitch). That's pretty much prime fuel economy. I've never seen the graph for a 3.0L, but I'm guessing 2500rpm is well under the power band, so a lower pitch prop would probably make a significant difference with maintaining speed.
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PostPosted: Jun 19, 2009 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

taitrt wrote:


Also, fuel economy is a strange thing... but you'd be hard pressed to find a V8 that will burn less gas than a 3.0L I4 with almost any prop configuration.


That depends on a lot of things. Possibly it wouldn't burn less fuel at 21mph, but I bed if you gave me a 350 in an 18' or 19' boat with a 23P prop for a day on the lake with 6 adults on board vs a 3.0 I bet it would burn less gas.

Its more than just MPH and RPM... it had a lot to do with how much fuel you are having to burn at what RPM to maintian speed, i.e. how much throttle you have to put into it.

That V8 won't take much throttle to stay on plane at 30mph in that boat, but you will be working that 3.0 hard.

In general, will a 3.0 gett better average fuel economy... probably. If you are pulling wakeboarders, tubers, skiiers... a well tuned small V8 will probably come out ahead with a smart driver.

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PostPosted: Jun 23, 2009 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my guess. The RPM sensor requires that perfect pass be above 1500 RPM before it will engage, and thats on an 8 cylinder motor. It takes a 6 cylinder 33% more RPM to give the same tach signal to the RPM adapter. This means it takes at least 2000 RPM before perfect pass will engage on a v6. Now the 3.0L is a 4 cylinder. That means its gonna take twice the RPM of an 8 cylinder, or 3000 RPM, before perfect pass will engage.

3000 is a lot of RPM, and it may overshoot the usable MPH range for wakeboarding. My guess is thats the reason they dont advertise it for the 3.0L.

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PostPosted: Jun 25, 2009 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GuitsBoy wrote:
Here's my guess. The RPM sensor requires that perfect pass be above 1500 RPM before it will engage, and thats on an 8 cylinder motor. It takes a 6 cylinder 33% more RPM to give the same tach signal to the RPM adapter. This means it takes at least 2000 RPM before perfect pass will engage on a v6. Now the 3.0L is a 4 cylinder. That means its gonna take twice the RPM of an 8 cylinder, or 3000 RPM, before perfect pass will engage.

3000 is a lot of RPM, and it may overshoot the usable MPH range for wakeboarding. My guess is thats the reason they dont advertise it for the 3.0L.


Well, the RPM sensor reads a voltage signal based off pulses over time then does a calculation based to get RPMs, or through a circuit in older non digital circuitry, That is why if you go to Autozone and by an old tach, there is a switch on the back for how many cylinders your engine has.

THey could program it to read off a 4 Cylinder and not need 3000RPM to engage.

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PostPosted: Jun 25, 2009 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Im sure they could redesign the RPM adapter,but its probably simpler just to say no four bangers and not have to deal with the headache of maintaining two different RPM adapters. If they were to have a 4 cylinder RPM adapter that engages at 1500 RPM, and someone went to use that on a V8, perfect pass would engage at idle speed. Not something you want to have happen.

Is it possible? Of course. Does it make business sense for them? Not likely.

kyle f wrote:
GuitsBoy wrote:
Here's my guess. The RPM sensor requires that perfect pass be above 1500 RPM before it will engage, and thats on an 8 cylinder motor. It takes a 6 cylinder 33% more RPM to give the same tach signal to the RPM adapter. This means it takes at least 2000 RPM before perfect pass will engage on a v6. Now the 3.0L is a 4 cylinder. That means its gonna take twice the RPM of an 8 cylinder, or 3000 RPM, before perfect pass will engage.

3000 is a lot of RPM, and it may overshoot the usable MPH range for wakeboarding. My guess is thats the reason they dont advertise it for the 3.0L.


Well, the RPM sensor reads a voltage signal based off pulses over time then does a calculation based to get RPMs, or through a circuit in older non digital circuitry, That is why if you go to Autozone and by an old tach, there is a switch on the back for how many cylinders your engine has.

THey could program it to read off a 4 Cylinder and not need 3000RPM to engage.

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PostPosted: Jun 28, 2009 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GuitsBoy wrote:
Yes, Im sure they could redesign the RPM adapter,but its probably simpler just to say no four bangers and not have to deal with the headache of maintaining two different RPM adapters. If they were to have a 4 cylinder RPM adapter that engages at 1500 RPM, and someone went to use that on a V8, perfect pass would engage at idle speed. Not something you want to have happen.

Is it possible? Of course. Does it make business sense for them? Not likely.



They already have two. They have a V6 system.

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PostPosted: Jun 29, 2009 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyle f wrote:
They already have two. They have a V6 system.


I dont believe there is a separate system for the v6. As far as I know, its 1 size fits all. The only differences are in the length of throttle cable.

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PostPosted: Aug 21, 2009 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can tell you that they make a version for my Toyota wakeboat with Lexus V8 engine. The tach on that engine is 2ppr, normal for a v8 is 4ppr. The computer module has different firmware for the tach signal input.

It will still work with the paddle wheel without the tach hooked up. RPM mode won't work but that sucks for wakeboarding anyway.

I had to design a piece of hardware for my throttle interface with the PP cable, but they include that piece now when you buy a PP system for a Toyota.

My point is that I bet you could get PP to work with that engine. I'd call PP directly and talk to Eric or one of the other guys, they'll tell you if it will work or not.

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PostPosted: Sep 30, 2009 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PP will probably work with the 130hp sterndrive but they don't advertise it and you may need a different firmware on the master module. I'm not sure that the dealers normal stock will have the option for a V6 4 stroke.

I'm a PP dealer and used to get custom firmware for digital pro to run on all sorts of engines.

If you ordered a unit for your V6 4 stroke it will probably work. They don't advertise it because they DON"T support it. They are an excellent company to deal with, they delvier what the promise and only promise what they can deliver. That is why they don't advertise support for some engines even though it is possible - because they can't economically provide their usual standards of support should you need it.

Short answer, it will probably work if you order it for the right RPM signal and can work out how to put the throttle linkage together for your engine.
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PostPosted: Oct 10, 2009 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you call them, they'll work with you. They also didn't offer PP for Toyota until I did some work for them. It wasn't a big deal to make it work. They supported me, they had tried it on Jarret Llewellyns Epic with a home depot throttle piece and sent me pics. I had a stepper motor fail and they replaced it. If there's any kind of market for a kit for that engine, they'll help you if you help them.

You don't need RPM for the system to work anyway. I didn't have mine hooked up for the first year or two, only use the paddle wheel. Now, I'd do Stargazer and use the paddle wheel as well. You can do without the paddle wheel but if you have both you'll get better performance in rivers or currents.

If you pull a skier you should ask them about the tach input, otherwise I'd skip it.

If your throttle cable linkage (carb or fuel injected) looks similar to the pics in the PP docs, and you can lay out the PP cable horizontally opposing the throttle cable and route it smoothly to the stepper motor with room for the cable to move, you can make it work.

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PostPosted: Oct 11, 2009 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I checked a new unit a few days ago, Stargazer now comes preprogrammed with an option for V4, V6 and V8 RPM inputs. You just have to tell it which you have in engine setup.
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PostPosted: Aug 13, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to revive an old thread, im starting to lean towards getting PP for my 3.0.

I realize that the 3.0 is a small engine but i dont care, my boat makes a nice wake with the people and ballast that I use so im thinking about getting perfect pass so my fiance can drive the boat.

we dont watch the speedo while pulling a rider, we keep the tach right at 3500 rpms and thats the perfect spot to ride at. I hardly use any gas, maybe 5 gallons every 3 hours... so im really wanting to upgrade it.

since PP runs off RPM, would running 3500rpm be doable for PP in my 3.0?

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PostPosted: Aug 16, 2010 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so your not worried about having a good wake, but you are worried about going the perfect speed? i just dont see the point in dropping 1000$ for this?
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PostPosted: Aug 16, 2010 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my wake is great for what we do, what gives you the opinion to think that a 3.0 puts off a bad wake?
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