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Victoria's Secret
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BR_WB
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PostPosted: Jan 19, 2003 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Jedsterr:
That was good Laughing That's not how Memphis is though, haha, a little more civilized haha. No worries though.
Later,
Brad
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Neognosis
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PostPosted: Jan 19, 2003 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jedster,

Quote:
I don't want to hide sexuality from my children, however I do want to be able to teach them to be modest. This public display of women in underwear undermines the standards that we have for our family.


I just don't get people like you. I'm not being confrontational, and of course I'm not going to tell you how to raise your kids, but I don't understand this whole modesty thing. I think that VS is pretty classy, and glorifies the human form. I don't see why appreciating the human form is immodest, or what is the point of "modesty" anyway.

I mean, if you look at it completely objectively, we've all got bodies, and somewhere along the line, European culture decided that it was better to hide them and be ashamed, even though everyone has one, and they are stunning examples of evolutionary engineering. I just don't get it.[/quote]

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dan
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PostPosted: Jan 19, 2003 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what he's getting at is that he wants to raise his kids and teach them about sexuality, modesty, and the right and wrong way to display there bodies. At this point in my life, I don't have any problem with VS, but, in his role as a dad, I can see where Jedsterr's coming from. Little kids don't need to see that.

By the way, the European culture didn't just decide to hide the human body. It was done in an effort to stay alive. Unlike our ancestors (apes, monkeys, etc), our body hair doesn't keep us warm enough. Clothes were sought as a means of keeping our body temperature at a sustainable level. Fashion and form followed function on this one. FYI, it might not have been the Europeans who started doing this...the Egyptians were doing this long before there was evidence of life in Europe....it gets damn cold in the desert.

Different strokes for different folks I suppose. I don't see anything wrong with being a bit moral and promoting modesty to your kids. If more parents thought and acted the way Jedsterr did, then we'd probably have less teenage pregancies and the like in our world. But, that's another rant for another time....

Just my thoughts,

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jedsterr
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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2003 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I spend a lot of time thinking about stuff like this. I'm a pretty young guy (27) I have a great wife, 2 children & one on the way. Just like the rest of you I'm into "extreme" sports. Some of the lifestyle that accompanies the sports does not blend well with my parenting & religious obligations. So I have to decide. I can be totally free spirited, into public sexuality, into drinking, and smoking weed. All that would probably be a lot of fun and feel great...........but.

The cost of those actions would likely be the addition of at least 3 people to society who lack a good roll model and would likely lack self control themselves. The same sort of self-control that I would be abandoning if I didn't take issue with the VS storefront and TV advertising.

I'm not preaching. My wife makes purchases from VS and I enjoy that! I just wanted to throw another point of view out there. It's something that many of you are not too far away from having to think about yourselves.

Children make you think. Sometimes I have a good laugh at my own expense because of how I've gone 180* on some issues or attitudes in life. It's all for the better though. If it weren't, I wouldn't do it.

=J
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matt 4
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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2003 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so i went into VS today with my girlfriend and i found out the secret,.....everywhere you walk look everybody in the eye, then there is no way they can think that you are undressing them with your eyes.
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Neognosis
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PostPosted: Jan 21, 2003 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The cost of those actions would likely be the addition of at least 3 people to society who lack a good roll model and would likely lack self control themselves. The same sort of self-control that I would be abandoning if I didn't take issue with the VS storefront and TV advertising


Ok, now you're just baiting me. Are you saying that because I think that nudity and open sexuality are correct and healthy, that I don't have any self controll? I won't go off just yet, because first I want to make sure that you are insinuating that a frank and un-repressed attitude about the human body and sex is tantamount to drug and alcohol abuse, and that somehow self-controll must be lacking if a person does not object to posters of lingerie models in public. Are you saying that if I don't teach my kids to think that not hiding, even proudly displaying, our bodies is wrong, than my kids will grow up without morals or self controll? Are you seriously insinuating that repression in the road to self-controll?

Quote:
I don't see anything wrong with being a bit moral and promoting modesty to your kids. If more parents thought and acted the way Jedsterr did, then we'd probably have less teenage pregancies and the like in our world


and you, don't even infer for one second that it's our blossoming openness about sex that is a cause of teenage pregnancies and "the like". I believe that the more you repress sex and teach kids that it is something secret and something that only is "bad" for them to see or know about, the more you shake up that bottle of pop, and the more it is going to explode. Do you think that teenagers wouldn't obsess about sex if we made VS and the like take down their posters, or if we taught kids that sex was a great forbidden no-no? My parents were like this, and as soon as I got away from them, I f'd everyting in a skirt that would say yes. I was brought up a strict Catholic, and me and all my Catholic friends were the biggest boozers and womanizers in college. I think that a forbidden fruit is all the more sweet, and ignorance combined with a biological urge causes "pregnancy and the like".

I'm not saying you can't raise your kids any way you see fit, but don't you dare even insinuate that because I don't raise mine to think that sex is bad or should be kept secret or that a beautiful woman in her underwear is a harmful thing for them to see, don't ever insinuate that my kids are not "moral" or are not going to grow up to be good people.

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dan
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PostPosted: Jan 22, 2003 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cameraboy wrote:
Quote:
I don't see anything wrong with being a bit moral and promoting modesty to your kids. If more parents thought and acted the way Jedsterr did, then we'd probably have less teenage pregancies and the like in our world


and you, don't even infer for one second that it's our blossoming openness about sex that is a cause of teenage pregnancies and "the like". I believe that the more you repress sex and teach kids that it is something secret and something that only is "bad" for them to see or know about, the more you shake up that bottle of pop, and the more it is going to explode. Do you think that teenagers wouldn't obsess about sex if we made VS and the like take down their posters, or if we taught kids that sex was a great forbidden no-no? My parents were like this, and as soon as I got away from them, I f'd everyting in a skirt that would say yes. I was brought up a strict Catholic, and me and all my Catholic friends were the biggest boozers and womanizers in college. I think that a forbidden fruit is all the more sweet, and ignorance combined with a biological urge causes "pregnancy and the like".

I'm not saying you can't raise your kids any way you see fit, but don't you dare even insinuate that because I don't raise mine to think that sex is bad or should be kept secret or that a beautiful woman in her underwear is a harmful thing for them to see, don't ever insinuate that my kids are not "moral" or are not going to grow up to be good people.


I'll let Jedsterr fight his own battle with you, but I would like you to point out exactly where I said sex is bad. Sex is not bad. Sex is not bad...not at all. But, I do believe in teaching kids that sex is something special between a guy and a girl that love each other, not just something you do for shits and giggles. It can be fun, it can be entertaining, and it can be very important in your life. But, I think that it's something special that should be shared with someone you love, not with "everything in a skirt that would say yes."

I was also raised a Catholic and had their horrible view of sex thrown down my throat too. Guess what, I ended up just like you - a big drinker and womanizer in school. But, you know what, I learned something. The sex that I had just to have sex didn't mean a whole hell of a lot to me. The girls I had to chase and really get to know before I could get anywhere...that meant a hell of a lot more.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound preachy or anything. I do believe the female human body should be viewed as special and beautiful, but I also think that teaching kids about how special sex can be is important. And, I'm not saying you wouldn't do this, cameraboy, I'm just stating a fact...not necessarily directed at you. I think you took my previous comments a little too personal. It's funny, I'm engaged now and obviously the subject of children has come up more than once. I never realized how much pressure my parents had on them (I probably still don't know 90% of it) until now. You face a lot of difficult things in trying to raise your kids the right way - what religion you think they should follow (she's Jewish, I'm Catholic - so they'll be spinning dreidels under the Christmas tree), how you teach them right from wrong, how you broach the topic of sex, and a host of other things. It's a tricky business. I give Jedsterr a lot of credit for striving to be a strong, positive roll model for his children.

Cameraboy, I guess what I'm saying is there has to be a somewhat happy medium between our strict Catholic upbringings (and I agree, the forbidden fruit is more sweet) and a total open, care-free approach to sex. Have I found it? No. But I think it's out there and that's the general direction I'll aim my kids in when the day comes.

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Neognosis
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PostPosted: Jan 22, 2003 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok dan, I hear what you are saying. I apologize for being so defensive, as I get touchy when I think someone else believes their "morals" to be "better" than mine. I totally react immediately whenever I feel like someone else is attempting to impose their morality on me. You probably weren't even trying to do that.

See, I think I've found that "happy medium" between my strict Catholic upbringing and social irresponsibility. I believe that sex can be many different things. I'm married now, and sex means more with my wife than it did with my girlfriends. However, I still think that sex for fun's sake, when a person is mature enough to handle it, is OK. The bottom line is respect for yourself and your partner. I don't think that consensual sex between people who are not in a committed relationship equals a lack of respect. I slept with most of my female friends before I got married. I respected every single one of them, and still respect myself. (ironically, I married a virgin.)

Anyhow, I think everyone has a right to their own beliefs. I do still think that banning VS posters from their storefronts would be way, way too uptight and totalitarian for me to live with. I would not want to live in a state or city where they deemed VS posters obscene or inappropriate for public display. I think banning them would send the message that a woman in her underwear MUST equal something sexual, and therefore we should hide that from our kids. I think that's harmful.

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dan
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PostPosted: Jan 23, 2003 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worries cameraboy. I never meant to sound like my morals were better than your morals or anything like that. As I'm sure you know, you lose a lot of tone in writing.

But, I do have an honest question purely for my own curiousity and sake of discussion. You say that:

cameraboy wrote:
I think banning [VS Posters] would send the message that a woman in her underwear MUST equal something sexual...


So, a woman posed provocatively in her underwear doesn't equal something sexual? I mean, even if you look at it and only think "Man, I'd love to see my wife/fiancee/girlfriend in that," it's still a sexual thought. I'm totally separating it from the part about hiding it from your kids. I've said before that I don't think sex should be hidden from kids. I'm just trying to figure out how a woman in her underwear (usually sexy stuff to boot in the VS ads) can't equal something sexual.

By the way, was marrying a virgin a case of the forbid fruit being sweeter? Wink

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Neognosis
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PostPosted: Jan 23, 2003 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan,

Of course, a woman is more than a sex object. So I believe you can admire a beautiful body in a non-sexual way. First, I don't think that they are always posed provactively. Often, when I see a one of those posters, my thoughts are not "I would love to bang her" but "wow, what a great body." There's a big difference. I can appreciate a woman's body as a beautiful work of art, and seperate that from sex.

The other night my wife was undressing, and I thought "God, she is beautiful, I'm so lucky." She was in her VS underwear, but my thoughts were to appreciate her beauty, and they weren't sexual at that moment. Anyone think I'm makin' sense?

However, I could see how you would always associate any nudity with sex, if you were not exposed to nudity in any context OTHER than sex. which goes to my point that by covering up nudity all the time, we relegate the body to a sexual object, not a beutiful thing that can be appreciated on many different levels.


And yea, the fruit was sweeter, but 'cause she was THE ONE. The fact that she was a virgin just tells me that God has a wonderful sense of humor and irony. Laughing

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dan
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PostPosted: Jan 24, 2003 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cameraboy,
I totally hear you and you're making 100% sense. It's kind of like how a painter looks at the naked female body for it's artistic value, not necessarily its sexual value (OK, that sounded a little weird and wrong, but I think you catch my drift). I guess I just never thought about it in that light. Hell, I should have. Do you know how many drawings I did in art classes that captured the female body (usually in bathing suits or something...they didn't allow naked models in HS). Never really thought of it in a sexual way when I was doing it either. I understood the artistic beauty of it. But, it makes perfect sense

And, yes, God does have a wonderful sense of humor and irony...I'm reminded of it every day with my fiancee. You'd have to have those qualities to throw a Long Island loud-mouthed Jewish girl and a somewhat quiet Catholic Boston guy together and make them work.

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