Question re: Wake type vs. Rocker type

[jt09]

So my bud Brian finally got his new X2 and the wake is a STEEP brick wall! Love it, but got to get used to it as well.

Now, to my question:

I ride an 03 (I think) Byelry 142. Board's got a pretty aggresive 3 stage rocker, which is going to make it buck. Add that to a wake that kicks straight up and I'm getting booted pretty good.

If I switched to a continuous rocker board, would that mellow the pop out a bit?

I'm guessing yes, but wondered if anyone's ever really put much thought into wake type vs rocker in terms of compatibility/style.

[Willy]

Hey, my riding partner also just got an X-2 this weekend! What a sweet ride. Today we rode with a sac in the front bow (the Fly Hi that goes under the 3 seats of the playpen). It gave the wake a much smoother ramp, and at the same time made it harder. Try that. Very sweet.

[jt09]

We have the wake dialed for the most part. Adding about 400lbs to the front pushed the clean wake a good 5-7' farther back and may have mellowed it a bit, but it's still a very steep wake.

[Commodore]

You are correct sir. I choose my board because I knew what I would spend most of my time behind. I run a 3-stage as well, and when we did boat demo day with pro-style boats, not only was I going WAAAY out into the flats, I was going insanely high. My knees were not happy with me.

Now with that, I have ridden a continuous rocker board before and it felt like riding a brick compared to what I was used to.

My suggestion would be slow down on your approach, don't go so far out and cut in. That ease of pop will help you if you wanna try inverts with less effort. Once I got used to the size of the pro-boats wakes I was going w2w clean and landing on the downside of the opposite wake. But my hang time was nuts. Try dialing it down a bit and see if that works. Unless you're dead set on a new board.

What is your line length at? Have you tried lengthening it out?

[Bambamski]

jt09,

I think the wake and the board go perfect as is. Just takes a couple of times to get used to it.

I have the older x-2 (x-1) now which I think is steeper then the new X-2. I ride the 06 CWB platinum which is a really "poppy" board. I think it's a great combo. Stick with it

[jt09]

haugy, I do need to get more used to the wake. I haven't been riding hardly at all over the last 2 summers, so my timing is all jacked to begin w/.

It will take me some time to dial in my line length and speed, but everything is too new for me to know my comfort level just yet.

Bambamski, I'd disagree w/ your comment on the wakes. Your boat is my favorite wake ever and I've ridden it a TON. The new X2 is very much like the old SANTE wake imo, minus the "dip" before the ramp. I was just geting booted STRAIGHT up, as was everyone else, including the pro riding w/ us.

I've got no choice but to stick w/ it for now, but I'm thinking of going w/ a new stick afte this season so I'm just throwing out ideas. I've always liked continuous boards when I've had the chance to get on them, just haven't had a ton of experience on them. The Murray is the only one I've really ridden at all.

Besides, this forum could use a new topic. Or at least a new look at one.

[Epic]

This pains me to do this but.........I rode with a guy who sells Mastercrafts about a month ago. He told the wake behind my boat (07 22SSV) most resembled an X-2 on slightly larger. It is fairly steep which I like. I have been a riding a 140 Shane most of the summer which has considereable pop and off this wake it does shoot you very high and does "buck" a little. When my Shane cracked in half a few weeks ago I rode a 139 Team for a few days (continuous rocker) and noticed a HUGE difference. Very smooth off the wake, no bucking at all (at least not compared to what I was used to). Personally, I like the "bucking" feel of the 3 stage boards (back to a PS3 now) and the straight up pop. But I think you'd definately notice a big difference between boards especially on a steeper wake.

[jt09]

Thanks Epic, that's exactly what I was looking for.

Sorry to have pained you.

[Wakebrad]

I agree with the original conclusion. If you ride a steep wake a continuous rocker will mellow out the pop.

[Epic]

[Bambamski]

jt09,

really??? I've yet to ride behind a new X-2 so I'm going off the comments that I've read about it's wake. I thought it was more of a rampy mini X-star? hmmm the wife surfed behind a new x-2 the other day and liked the wake.

So JT what's the call. is the new one worth the dough to trade in? or stick with my old X-2?

[jt09]

Bambamski, I'd stick w/ the old one, but you are asking a biased guy! Like I said before, I've had probably 50% of my lifetime pulls behind that hull. I think it's the most managable wake out there by far in that you can tweak it w/ weight placement better than any other hull.

If I had the cash to buy my choice of boats right now, the X1 would be it. Now if I can break the code on this new X2, I may have to change my mind as the space and setup is just awesome. Loved the layout, the textured vinyls, the cluster guage (although I never drove, it looked good from my seat!), the storage spaces. Just a first class ride.

Granted I have only ridden behind this new X2 once, but there's nothing rampy in the slightest about the wake.

[Thomas P.]

jt09, it is very odd that you compared the X2 wake with the old 210 SAN ('96-06). The X2 has a very flat hull (esp. the stern) when compared to the SAN and the wake to me feels about night and day difference. The old 210 did feel like a concrete wall, but in my opinion, the X2 was not even close (much longer and not as high). it is the current demo boat at the shop and I've ridden it more than just about any other boat this summer. I would compare the wake to an Xstar, just not a long with similar height (so the gradient is a bit steeper overall), and will go ahead and say the X15 is one the steepest (taller with one of the shortest length gradients). I think the X1 that my buddy has (5 sacs on top of factory) with the way he weighs it is the next steepest wake in the MC line.

To answer your question, the rocker pattern won't necessarily change your flight path off the wake, that depends on your approach/technique. However, it may very well change the feeling you get, that "jolt" from wake's energy. THe cont. rocker might smooth things out in that respect.

[oshensurfer]

First off, I was with jt09 this weekend riding this boat. Before Sat, I was extremely sceptical about it because it is truly a deceiving wake in terms of look. I think it looks really mellow like the Xstar because it's so friggen clean, so far back and has a rounded lip.

The pro riding with us was at 85 and was just throwing some NASTY stuff effortlessly. I think we were riding at 75' and the wake def throws you up, esp on a 3 stage, which is what I ride also.

The first couple cuts I took did buck me unexpectedly, but I like that feeling esp after I get my timing down. Which unfortunately, I didn't have either that day. hahaha.

Now, I can't really compare to a SAN, because I've never ridden behind one, but I do know what a buck feels like and this definitely will pop you up .

Yesterday behind my VLX, I was much more consistent, but I have to say, I was totally impressed with the new X2 wake. And I'm sort of a misnomer when it comes to opinion on the pickle fork design. uh oh. Here it comes......I think the Xstar is WAAAAYy over rated.

jt09, I think you just need to get more time behind that boat and get the timing down and you'll find yourself getting in sync with the wake. I'd say stick with your existing board, but I would agree that a continuous will get you a smoother wake to air.

[Blake]

jt09, you goon, dont say I never did anything for you.

GET ON YOUR ROCKER
Finding the right board the easy way
By Kyle Schmidt

This year there are well over 200 wakeboards on the market, and they’re all eager to get wet and ride at a moment’s notice. The toughest part is choosing one.
When you’re browsing for a boat, the first things that pop out are the name and length, maybe even a connection to a pro rider you’re into. Good start so far. Then, all these crazy features start pouring out into one big flood of confusion – molded this, cupped that, different tips and tails, bottom materials, rockers, widths and fin configurations. Where do you start?
Let’s go about it in a different way. Consider the wake you usually ride, then think about your riding style. This will help you figure out the most important feature for your riding: rocker. When matched properly, rocker alone will improve your riding more than any other board characteristic.

IT’S ALL ABOUT ROCKER
Rocker is the most important variable in respect to the wake your ride, determining a board’s speed and pop. Think rocking chair: Rocker is the amount and type of bend pressed into a board from tip to tail. All the other features help the board, but compared to rocker they each play just a subtle role in how a board relates to the wake and your style.
The flatter a board is, the faster it planes across the water. The more bent the board is, the more water it will push, making the board slower. Now don’t jump to the conclusion that faster is better. Everyone may want that Ferrari feeling, but slower boards are preferred so the rider can go up straighter and not get sprayed in the face when a wake is steep. In other cases a flatter boar is better, so the rider can edge through a mellow wake and go way out in to the flats. So keep an open mind till we get to the good stuff.
When you’re looking at board specs, rocker will be displayed in inches, measure by the maximum height of the board’s edge off the ground. These days, anything less than 2.5 inches is considered pretty flat,, while anything 2.5 and above is giving you some serious curve.

CONTINUOUS ROCKER
That rocking chair visual that’s been sitting in your head is called continuous rocker. It’s a smooth, uninterrupted curve from tip to tail. Continuous boards tend to be faster than 3-stage boards with an equal amount of rocker, due to a smoother water flow across the curve, though these boards usually won’t pop as hard.

THREE-STAGE ROCKER
These boards have two distinct bend points and a flat spot in between, rather than a smooth curve. If you split the boat into thirds, right at the line between each section would be where the board bends. You can move these lines closer to the middle or away from the middle to create a bigger or smaller flat spot for the board to land on. Enlarging the flat spot slightly speeds up the ride through the water.
So each rocker type has its pros and cons. But don’t establish a favorite yet – we still haven’t talked about wake types.

WHAT KIND OF WAKE DO YOU HAVE?
The cool thing about wakeboarding is you can ride behind anything that will pull you out of the water, and it will have some sort of wake. This gives us a variety of wake sizes and shapes. Narrow boasts are easy to weight down for big wakes, but those wakes are steep. The wider the hull, the softer they get. So it’s best to find a happy medium.

PWC
Personal watercraft have smaller wakes, but they can be considered the most accessible. We all know there are tons of PWCs out there, and these watercraft are more affordable than most boats and are becoming popular for wakeboarding.

STERN-DRIVE
As the boat grows, the wake usually grows. I/O’s, or inboard/outboard boats, also called stern-drives, tend to be a runabout family boat for cruising across the lake. The narrow deep-V hull allows the boat to cut through the waves but makes the wake steeper.

INBOARD
Most inboard ski boats are designed to have a very flat wake at high speeds, but when you slow them down and weight them you can get a decent wake for wakeboarding. If the hull is flat and narrow in the back, the wake will be on the steeper side. If it has a little V and some width, the wake will be more on the mellow side.

DREAM MACHINE
Ideal wakeboard boards are V-Drive, open-bow and heavy. They are usually 21 feet or longer and have the ultimate wake characteristics. The same rules apply: If the hull is narrow and flat in the back the wake will be steep. If the hull is wider and has some V, it will be a mellow transition.

EFFECTS OF A MELLOW WAKE
As the wake gets mellower, you create the pop more by using your edge. Smaller mellow wakes forces riders into having very fast, edgy style, since there isn’t much energy in a small wake to boot you up real high. Creating the pop is like doing tricks on the cable. You create the pop, the wake doesn’t. Bigger mellow wakes allow a rider to create a lot of speed and edge all the way through the wake, taking moves high and way out into the flats. Mellow wakes are geared toward edgy flips and inverts due to high line tension. The downfall to speed and line tension is that it’s harder to pass the handle for spins.

EFFECTS OF A STEEP WAKE
The riding styles related to these different wakes are usually affected by the shape of the transition. No matter what size the wake is, a steep wake is hard to edge through. You need to create pop more with your legs and not so much with your edge. A steep wake allows the rider to move across the back of the boat slower and go straighter up and down the transitions with a smooth, long-grab, spinny style. It’s not quite as easy to manage tricks taken out into the flats, though, since the transition is pointed straight up and not out.

TWEAKING
You’ll see these additional rocker descriptions on some higher-end boards. These rocker lines are relatively new and are designed to gain more speed, more pop, or both.

Subtle – A toned-down version of a 3-stage or continuous rocker line, to gain speed. For continuous shapes, it usually means the board has less rocker and you can see that in the measurement. For 3-stage boards, it is a more discreet version of the 3-stages. It feels faster because subtle rocker lines have more contact area with the water, for a faster feeling as you carve around and also while riding up the wake.

Blended – Currently used for continuous shapes. It creates a flat spot in the middle of the board. The edges maintain a continuous flow, but the bottom center of the board has the blended flat spot. It’s designed to give you a continuous edge and then a 3-stage pop.

Abrupt – Designed to be more explosive off the wake because of a kinked tip and tail. Used for boat continuous and 3-stage designs.

Progressive – Used for both 3-stage and cont. boards, it means a noticeable amount of bend applied to the tip and tail. It is fair to say that progressive and abrupt are similar in their meaning and application.

EFFECTS OF MORE ROCKER
Boards with a lot of rocker are aimed at the steeper wake and a slower, straight-up oriented style. Wake-to-wake grabs, spins and handle-pass inverts are a lot easier to manage with a board with more rocker. It will force you to use your legs, keep the line tension low and go high, but keep to the transition for some of those first hucks at these tricks.
If you are learning your first tantrum or front roll, which are the “trip-flips” of wakeboarding, having a board with a lot of bend will help you switch edges and trip straight up for the flip.
For off-axis spins it is crucial that you get into the air and pause. You have to go up and over the handle to spin. This high pause will help you get your body in the right position to spin. The big bend in the board will let you go slow enough into the wake, get the bounce you need and land down the transition so you can stop your body from rotating. If grabbing and flipping is your thing, then you will have more time to keep your hand on the board instead of just slapping the rail as you flip. You can still take tricks out into the flats and go big, but more rocker will make you work harder to produce the speed to sling yourself up and across the back of the boat.

EFFECTS OF LESS ROCKER
Flatter boars with a small amount of rocker are ideal from mellow wakes, aggressive riders and an edgy, out-in-the-flats style. Any “load and release” trick will be better executed with less rocker.
If you are learning your first front flips or raleys, then the edginess of a flatter board will help you load up the line, making the water catapult you upward whether you are using the wake or not. To learn your first raleys it is smart to learn how to jump way into the flats before you attempt them. You need speed to get the distance, and a flat board will allow this to happen. You won’t spend all your energy trying to make the board move, enabling you to spend that energy on managing the line tension in the air.
When the nose of your board starts blasting water in your eyes, that’s when you know your board is too flat for that wake size.

PUTTING IT TOGETHER
Now you should be a little more confident with your thoughts on choosing a new board. Follow the guidelines below. Remember; first establish your wake type – big or small, steep or mellow. Then determine your personal riding style – slow and straight up, or fast and out into the flats. These determine how much rocket you need. Then decide the feel you like – a continuous fast feel or a 3-stage abrupt feel. If you’re a person who does everything, then establish the feel you like – 3-stage or continuous – and grab a board with average rocker to suit all conditions.

[jt09]

Thanks Blake. Lots of good info there.

[scott a]

As answered before, yes, a blended 3 stage or continuous rocker will mellow things out. The question is how mellow are you looking for?

just a little mo' mellow? LF Shane
medium mellow? HL 3DS or LF Witness
lotta bit mellow? LF Team or LF Trip

[jt09]

I'm not sure and I really won't have any idea until I get back for a while. This board was fine for me before and I'll get used to the wake, but it will be time for a new board soon and cheap 06 and 07 models will be plentiful soon, so I kind of want to start thinking about what direction to look in. Just from reading things online, I'm thinking I'd like to check out the 3DS, LF Team, CWB Marius.

[Epic]

Haven't ridden the Marius but you'll really like either the 3DS or Team. Those are the 2 fastest boards I've ever ridden. Definately very smooth off the wake and very soft smooth landings. Keep in mind that any wake can also be manipulated with weighting (wakeplates, wedges etc.) Might just wanna try moving some weight around in the X2. If I load my front ballast (1000lbs) and put very little weight in the rears (or none depending on how many people are in the boat) it really mellows the wake out.
I do that when the girls ride What, I'm suppossed to be nice for an entire post?

[jt09]

We stuck 2 dudes up front and that helped a ton. We purposefully went out w/o any extra weight so we can get used to the wake as is. You can't tweak if you don't have a baseline. Right now the only plan is to stick about 400lbs of lead in the nose. We'll go from there. The tank gauges aren't working perfectly, or weren't the other day, but I'll see what nose heavy, tail light does for us next time out.

Appreciate all the advice. This is the best 'what kind of board should I buy" thread ever!

[oshensurfer]

jt09, If you like faster boards without much effort, I wouldn't recommend the Marius, unless they changed it since I rode it after it came out. Maybe it's me, but it took more effort than the average board to get it moving on the cut. My buddy felt the same way, but loved the soft landings so he stuck with it.

[LakeIolaLuke]

jt09, I'd check out the LF witness or Ronix frontier as well. Both boards can be ridden like a continuous rocker or a three stager, depending on how you edge and place your weight.

[Blake]